habaletaher wrote on 11 Jan 2010 05:28:

LOL!!  :D :D :D
thank you HABA you really give me a chizuk.
i don't work on the same project with her, she is our secretary assistant, and i work with the scretary that sit with the ...  :D at the same office.
sometimes i just pass their office, and sometimes i need to go in their room, now i make an effort to do it just in case of pikuach nefesh

Chazal say "Isha chemas malei tsoah, upiah malei dam". If you think about it, it's a rather disturbing thought. It makes you disgusted with the concept of a woman.
This might sound extreme, but you are in an extreme situation. Why don't you accustom yourself to seeing her that way. Let that be the thought which goes through your mind every time you pass her room.
If you think this is nuts then I guess just take someone elses advice, but chazal tell you to do this - and for a very good reason, because it works.
Hang in there man,
KG

If it helps, whenever you pass her, think of me and haba walking next to you, kevlar trenchcoats and tefillin, always there to support you and be your bodyguards...

And it's true - we're always here for you, and we're davening for your continued success!

Think of it as being dramatic, because it IS dramatic! And your success is amazing!

One Life,

Tell me, what happens when you are driving and you pass a pretty pritsy and you realize for after a second that you are looking at her? Of course you turn away immediately, that's not even called a slip. But at that second you are faced with an urge to turn & look again. Know that urge? Sometimes it's strong, yes? Especially when you realize that in a few seconds she'll be gone, and you'll never have the chance to see that particular pretty face or figure again. You FEEL INSIDE that you are going to MISS OUT on something, right? That you are going to LOSE something.

Now tell me what happens after you succeed in not looking a second time, not even in your mirror. 15 seconds after she's no longer in sight. How do you feel? LIKE IT WAS NO BIG DEAL. Zilch. It's not even BOTHERING you anymore. Now, did you lose anything?? NO, OF COURSE NOT!! NO SUFFERING. in fact, 60 seconds later it's not even on your mind.

Same thing here. YOU WILL NOT BE LOSING ANYTHING IF YOU IGNORE THE ATTRACTION. Understand that, internalize that you will be missing nothing! Adarabah, you will be stronger for it, for you would have strengthened your kedusha muscles.

One other eitza. The Ritva's Taanis. At the end of each meal, leave over a little of the food or drink you really want to finish, in Honor of your Creator. It's a way of breaking the control of teivah on you. I do not have to give into all my desires. Read more about this in Rabbeinu Yonah's Yesod Hatshuvah, found in the Rosh Hashanah Machzor. This is constant, every day, every meal. You'll see your YH first hand, when you want that last piece of juicy steak, the last few fries. You'll feel that immediate urge to just give in.

And you'll see it's the same urge as to look at a woman that way.

And you'll see that you can break the hold that impulsive urge has on you.

Now and forever.

Kollel Guy wrote on 11 Jan 2010 08:37:


KG, I disagree with your approach.

Thinking of women in this regard is yet again another DE-PERSONIFICATION of a human being, meaning that again you are turning her into an object in your mind. Instead of an attractive Sex-Object, now into a disgusting bloody object. But it's still the same koach of turing her into a object. And that's opposite of what we are trying to accomplish, even as first aid.

This topic could be a new thread on it's own.

What we learned in DC's Calls is to PERSONIFY. To think of her as a human being with hopes and dreams and a life separate from yours. Of course, we're not talking about fantasizing, or trying to befriend this person. But making her into a human being just like you, with faults and greatness of their own. Someone with parents, someone who has friends, family, joy and sadness. In short, as a person. The videos we used to watch, the pictures we used to see made these women onto objects, not people. One of the biggest turn-offs guys joke about is that a girl was really attractive until she opened her mouth. Once she became a real person, and you found even one small flaw, that's it - you're outa here.

Do the same thing here. She's not a bag of blood. She's a person, with feelings and flaws, WHICH YOU DON'T REALLY CARE TO GET TO KNOW. CAUSE IF YOU WOULD, YOU'LD KNOW THAT YOU'D BE DISAPPOINTED. So now it's easier to project that feeling into the situation NOW, and learn to have just enough dislike to make her uninteresting.

Different approach. Better results.

Hey I can't argue with DC, but I don't think we're talking about the same point. You are discussing a person who is an attraction, and to see her person as a person and not an object.
I think chazal are saying that you should view your attraction itself as a disgusting thing - not always, but in a situation of danger.
My rebbe described to me how this works. He said your lust is attracted only to the external aspects of a woman, which makes her an "object" to your lust perception, (and can even use the person who she is - to help draw the lust picture in your mind. The opposite of the way you should look at a person, which is defined by who they actually are, and then an added visual.) And chazal wanted to counter that 'external' viewing of the person, by showing you the aspect of the external which your not noticing, and which affects you much more.

not sure I understand that, KG.

If it works for you, that's great. But if it doesn't work for you, what's brokee - the system or the follower...?

Steve wrote on 11 Jan 2010 17:47:


WOW Steve, that is brilliant. I'm going to have to try that, because the idea behind it is incredible. Your posts all tend to be very long, but that's because you have so much of value to say. The stuff you write is very deep. Too deep, in fact, for a shallow guy like me to comprehend. We should chat on the phone sometime, because I miss hearing your thoughts on DCs phone call!

Excellent point, Steve, I may try that...learning to say "no."

Our bodies are like little children, and it's our job to teach and be mechanech them.

i've just taken a little break for a little cuz privacy reasons and WOW!!!
YOU ARE REALLY AMAZING!!!
AFTER YOUR WORDS I FEEL THAT I DON'T HAVE ANY DESIRE...JUST for YOUR care for me.
thank you very much, i am really excited.

silentbattle wrote on 11 Jan 2010 15:14:

Silent, as always, you  put here an excellent idea!!  :D :D :D i promise to think about you and HABA walking next to me as Michael & Gavriel, not less!!  but you need to ask HABA if he don't care to work in that job as a bodyguard... :D :D :D

Steve wrote on 11 Jan 2010 17:47:


Steve, i don't know how  can one fall with friends like you??
you right!
everytime i see her just the first time and not! the second, 5 minutes later she is not on my mind at all....
i'm almost reach 30 days, i think this is the longest streak i have reached for the  2 last years,( i don't gorget before..)
and i feel that i can more easily not to take the second look.  , and even the first. ;D

i'm gonna try your advice bli neder  to  "leave over a little of the food or drink you really want to finish" to break my desire.
i heard about that in the past but never tried that.

i feel that you gave me extra force for the battle, actually its not force its a desire suppression! strong suppression for now.

thanks, Steve.

Kollel Guy wrote on 11 Jan 2010 08:37:


KollelGuy, this approach is pretty extreme, as you said.
sometimes it could be benefit to see her  in such sight, but its a little problem to see your colleague in that way.

i agree that on my rides to the work and return i can see the girls in such way  :D...i havn't tried it yet.

Hey OL just checking out how my buddy is doing. Seems like your still truckin. That is great. Keep it up.

thanks imtrying, yaa i'm sill clean.
suddenly i'm happy, i work better, with my wife everything is better too,
suddenly i have just ONELIFE and not duble life.

may hashem be with us.

OL, I'm so glad to hear this.

Keep well. KUTGW, and KOT.

Have another GREAT day!!