Jack,

The Rosh Yeshiva would certainly approve of a Mehaleich which reduces suffering or substitutes permissible pleasures for prohibited ones.  Rav Feldman is only saying that, if push comes to shove, we should grin and bear it, and our suffering to keep the Torah will be greatly rewarded.

understood. i just dont know of anything that can be that replacement RIGHT NOW. i'm not saying i'll never have it, but right now i don't have one. i'm searching for an answer.for now, grin and bear it is what i can do.as for R. twerski's advice, i'm still looking.

Hi Jack!

Just dropping in to say hello.  You're insight about sometimes we need to fill the void, but sometimes the point is just that we need to suffer, is a point I've needed to hear recently.

Sometimes the struggle to stay clean just plain hurts, and we need to accept it.

Thanks.

--Eye.

yes. i think i'm seeing that, too. people accuse me of 'white-knuckling' it. the way i see it, there is NO other way.even 12 steppers, when they get home, and they are alone, still have to white-knuckle it. the former borough president of queens new york, was on the phone with his psychiatrist, his 'sponsor' so to speak, and he still stabbed himself in the chest and killed himself.so, it is ultimately up to each and every one of us, to accept the challenge and fight.this is what Rav Feldman was saying.maybe Rabbi Twerski, coming from a chasidic background, is able to do things differently.just a guess.

jack wrote on 07 Apr 2011 20:34:

No. This is not true. I do not have to white-knuckle it, even when there is nobody around at all, and neither do others in recovery who I know. If you would read AA once from cover to cover, you would understand.

We stop fighting pur compulsions because we lose. We eventually give the "battle" to Hashem, which we never did before. And the pressure does not build up. We never "hold on just for tomorrow!". We do not live in fear of porn and other stuff. It is just none of our business any more. And when we forget that and start to take up the struggle again, we have friends to call and admit that we are losers against lust and they help us remember.

This is not regular avodas Hashem, and is not appropriate for the average Yid. It is not the regular Teshuvah and mussar pattern we know and love. It is for sick people, like me and hundreds of other frum yidden (many in kolel, mechanchim and otherwise good Jews) who I have come to know very well. And the same solution is working for many more goyim who I know, as well.

Now, joy is a part of my life as never before, as well as joy in serving Hashem clean for 14 years so far, one day at a time. My wife and children know they have a father and are safe. I have still made a lot of mistakes, failed in many ways, nearly forgotten the truth many times - but Hashem, my Best Eternal Friend (often using my human friends) has pulled me out of the gutter every time. Because I got out of His way and let him. 

Ah, I was waiting for Dov to step in to this conversation!

Jack, even though I'm far from an experienced 12-Stepper, I often find myself turning to the RBS"O and saying "I can't.  I'm simply not able to do this myself."  In other words, step one.

Dov, you NEVER have to struggle?

--Eye.

r yisroel salanter says that to change one character trait is as difficult as learning the entire shas. that means it can be done, but it is difficult. i can't speak for anyone else.whatever works, gezunte hayt, who am i to stop you? when i speak, i only speak for myself.everyone is different, has different backgrounds and approaches this battle differently.the 12 steps is not for everybody (sorry, dov).psycho-analysis is not for everybody, behavorism is not for everybody, cognitive behaviorism is not for everybody, etc. now, a freudian would say that psycho-analysis IS for everybody.and an orthodox skinnerian would say that behavior modification IS for everyone - and they don't agree with each other.so a 12-stepper like dov will say that the 12 steps IS for everybody - that's expected.a chasid will ask why isn't everyone a chasid? and a satmar chasid will ask why isn't everyone a satmar chasidf? etc. for me, the 12 steps don't work (sorry again).what works for me is, ready? group support, period the end.the fine people out there who are willing to help me, understand me, and give me chizuk is all i need.and recovery is a process, and i'm just in the beginning of the process.i've had to work on emotional things before, and it took me a long time, with a good support system of friends. in fact, the orthodox 12 step program actually harms me. the attitudes they discuss there do not help me at all. but don't let me discourage anyone out there, please.do what you have to do.so, good luck to everyione!whatever your method is. jack

now i don't want to turn anyone off the 12 steps, but the last time someone from the 12 steps spoke to me, i was shocked and disappointed, i fell and it took me a long time to get up.i really dont want to tell you what that was so i don't put ideas into anybody's head that are not already there.if you ask me privately, i will tell you. jack

dov wrote on 07 Apr 2011 20:54:

This needs some clarification.
1.Yyou aren't speding many hours on this site if s*x does not still have an oversized position in your mind and life (though B"H and to your credit you are channeling it properly).
2. You constantly refer to challenging situations where you need to either avoid the situation or use 12 step techniques

I just want to say rhank you to Jack and everyone who has written on this read. You have given me tremendous chizuk.
For the past hour I was skimming through Jack's journey from the beginning until now. Wow what an incredible journey!

It is like what everyone was saying a while ago that Jack you don't know all the zechusim you are getting from your journey and the impressions you have made on other lives.
After 120, you will see all these extra mitzvos that you accumulated and you will have no idea where they came from. You are so lucky!!!!

Take care everyone and keep up the great work!

jack wrote on 08 Apr 2011 13:00:


No. I do would not say that everyone should be using the 12 steps, and I do not say that, ever. I disagree with Rav Twerski that the 12 steps are usually appropriate for non-addicts, and I disagree with anyone who says to anyone else: "You are an addict and therefore you need the 12 steps."

Please forgive me but I am a little annoyed. The fact that you were so sure that I would certainly pasken the 12 steps approach for all addicts, tells me that you have been slapped around by one 12-step-fanatic too many. I have met a bunch of good people already who have been similarly abused by 12-steppers.

Most often, the 12-step guy who tried to shove the program down some innocent seeker's throat - was a guy with hardly any sobriety at all, himself! And people who go to 12-step meetings soon discover that it is the new guys who go shooting their mouths off and telling others "how it should be done". Not the people whose egos have been busted a few times already by sincerely getting to know their own imperfection and dependence upon G-d. The old-timers usually barf when the pontification starts...

So I sympathize with you and thank Hashem that I was never pistol-whipped by a step-nazi (a crass but clear AA term for those types, I hear).

What I found was something that led me back to sweet and healthy intimacy with Hashem, with my wife, and with my children. I am together with people again, more and more. So are you saying I should preface and close every single comment I make about how powerful the steps are as tools in my life? I cannot do that, so I wrote:




I talked about specific people: "I" and "We" - the only people in 12 step recovery who I know. I do not say "you". I only speak from my own limited and personal - but real - experience, and I do not tell anyone that they need to be doing it my way if they have any hope of getting better. But I do ask uncomfortable questions that they may take as insults sometimes...nu. Of that I should be afraid? I am not doing this stuff for fun.

So, if that is how you interpret my words, then I assume you were pistol-whipped by some of the same drive-by 12-step-chassidim who make me nauseated, too. If in fact it was someone with five years of sobriety, I would be shocked and very disappointed.

On the other hand, I have witnessed many people crawl to some manner of recovery (12 steps and other kinds) who admitted that they were there only because they finally admitted to themselves that hey had been obstinately hanging onto silly ideas for decades that eventually forced them to get the help they really needed (12-steps and other kinds). Since I do not know you at all, who am I to judge that your fall after the traumatic contact with a 12-stepper was because you were right - or because he was right? Only you can know that  - now or later - and boruch Hashem it's truly none of my business! Just like 'how pretty the lady in the street really is' is none of my business. I'm not qualified to be either kind of judge and both jobs are toxic to me. Lust does not deserve the time of day, and neither does judgmentalism. That is an idea I picked up from addicts in 12-step recovery, and I like it so I use it.

But back to you and the other great stuff you posted about -

You are so lucky to have a chevra who you can talk openly and completely about your stuff with. May Hashem help us both retain that (I can't make it without the support either) by sharing our own experiences and remaining open to those of others. That's what holds us together, it seems.

But the "changing a middah concept" has absolutely nothing to do with any 12 step recovery that I have ever seen, so if you are OK with it, let me know what that was about. By PM if you deem it better, whatever you like.

I really do respect you no matter what and wish you and yours ah geshmakeh heiligeh Guten Shabbos, Jack!

kosher wrote on 08 Apr 2011 13:37:

Referring to:

1. I believe I am on this site mainly to put my 12th step into action and because I am in love with Jews, not for my struggles. Though the people who I am meeting seem to be helping me live life much better, so that's great.

2. I admit my struggles here (even though I still go to SA meetings weekly and share with program friends, my sponsor and sponsees) because if I hide them from the GYE chevra it would flush everything I believe in down the toilet. I'd be putting on a show.

I know you do not mean it this way, but it is funny that I have gotten some responses from people that say: See! Dov still has lust. That proves that the 12 steps do not work for him! So he is a fake.

Hey, on some level we are all fakers (except for you, sir, except for you) (just kidding...you probably are, too) (I love parentheses). Oy lanu beyom hadin - oy lanu beyom hatocheicho was meant for other tanna'im, no?

So? I and all y'all are trying, and that's what matters. We roll our eyes, flap our wings....and our Benevolent Tatty takes care of the rest.

Love,

Dov

My point is that no matter what technique/method one uses, there will always be challenges. Your experience is certainly not an exception to that nor is Jack's

I am actually not sure what  "white knuckling" means, but if I am (and this could happen) travelling in some remote part of Asia. I haven't slept normally or had a hot meal in over a week and my body is totally out of whack from the time zone changes and the like. Due to the time zone and remoteness, I haven't spoken to my wife and kids in a few days. I also have not had meaningful human contact (just business meetings) for all of this time. Then I check into a hotel and the person behind the reception desk is wearing a warm  smile but other wise not much else and I hear to my right me the noise coming from the hotel pool that sounds like it is occupied by females. Is there any way to make it easy not to look? I don't think so. The best method would probably to call someone for support, but that might not be easy considering the time zone and location.

What I would do is to remind myself that if I allow myself to be triggered, there is no telling where it will end. The bitterness and long term difficulty it could bring to me is way worse than the discomfort of spending a few minutes not looking until I make it to my room (and avoid all the junk there).  I think about the mess the guy who started the thread "fallen" (and others like hime) got themself into. I don't know if this is called white knuckling or anything else, but it works for me (though I am not claiming perfection here).

Oy vei. I fear that what I posted was felt by Jack to be yet another shoving-down-the-throat of "the Program". Where did he go?

If it was, I guess I can't do any better. Please forgive me and ignore all my comments.

Have a great Pesach!