613,

Is it correct of me to say, that you do an awfully lot of thinking?

--Elyah

613 how is it going today for you?

hey guys,

@Elyah - yup. I am Cartesian; you can call me Renee.

@Shmeichel -- awesome awesome, bli ayn hara, ptoo ptoo!

After my post yesterday I remembered some halachas of the bathroom, and started folding a piece of toilet paper into a triangle and using it to hold the little pisher. At first I thought that was a bit strange, but you know what, I have been triggered just from holding in the past and so this does make a lot of sense for me. I also try to keep the pants at my knees for the sit down events, but it's tough to remember.

My strategy has been that slips are part of the fight and so I have to fight against urges to slip as well. I started to think about days seven and eight and how they used to become chocolate popping times. I was then about to have an urge to slip -- so I said to yetzer, "Effyou! I will not be a victim! You think I am just going to sit by and wait for your attacks and deal with them! Effyou! I will fight you! Chump!" I then decided that best defense is a good offense.

I then said more or less - "You asked me a question, and the answer is "No!" It is "No," it was "no" and it will always be: "No." I don't need it! I don't want it. "No!" It is just plain: No. Just to clarify: No. And if you have any questions: No. And for those of you absent: No!. and for future reference: NO!" -- I was very assertive and it felt good. I had the urge to slip a few times and I just said a version of the mantra, I also said it at random times just to make a point. I took an index card, folded it in half, used a sharpie (because it is a "permanent marker") and wrote "NO" in big. During my mantras I think "survey says: [and I open the card] NO." this connection exercise can help associate what you say with the card, and in the evening I started to feel it by just opening and looking at the card.

(This morning I woke up and my blood flow caused a stiffness in a certain area, as is biologically normal. I said to myself "No" in the way that dog owners yell at their barking and jumping dogs... it worked.)

Why was I so adamant? I haven't yet read the study about 90 days but I said "I don't want to be in the same position on day 80 as i will be on day 10. I need to improve every day. On days 4,5 I brushed off and ignored urges to slip, but today is not day 5, today is day 6!" I will try to keep improving and working harder so that my 90 days becomes a progression and not an experiment in self wallowing.

----

I think yesterday was a day of gilui shechina for me.

In the morning, I randomly walked over for hagba, and someone said hagomel -  I found myself having in mind to be yotzeh. Then someone else said it. I thought "I need to say it three times." hagba was about to start, and as I thought "oh well, two is good" someone else stopped him and said hagomel as well.

I didn't put that in my post because I try not to over-associate these kind of simanim, but yesterday was full of them. The most amazing were during lunch. I am in detox, so I couldn't watch youtube or read the paper or books during lunch. I wasn't in the mood to learn a sefer, so I started to think "this is silly, should I just stare out the window?!" I also thought this whole detox idea might not be the answer and maybe its pointless.

Then I decided to pick up an english jewish book, the first one i saw was "pathway to prayer" quite apropos. In HS senior year, my grade was really into this sefer/book. I have hardly picked it up since then. I opened it and found a parsha pamphlet inside - it was from Nov 2002 - one page (Double sided) - there were two articles: "Physical and Spiritual Danger" and "Responsibility and Repercussion" -- whoa! -- I started to read and the first article was about how we need to fight against Eisav "our brother" and completely disassociate from the chreft around us, and just if you asked for ketchup - he connected channuka to Purim - the holiday we just passed! The other article spoke about violating dina - and it says not just was he yaakov - son of avram and yitzchak, but he was also Yisrael - he fought with the malach and won!

that was inspiring and so I also read the story article - it was about the kotzker - and it said many poignant things including how he strongly emphasized the need to get out of complacency and to constantly work and strive ourselves (emphasis on the self, as opposed to mimicking others.) The last paragraph said: "... reliance on signs and miracles fosters the passivity so fatal to self-transformation." It ended with this: Reb Mendel said, "G-d created only the beginning. From this point on it is up to man to build himself and his world." Whoa!

I then went to get some cereal - and the box said "got some motivation" and the word motivation was huge (its a cereal common for dieters). I thought genook, but tried for another sign and the paper had a headline about Israel, unrelated and when I started to look away I saw the other headline "Adar and Beyond" -- fyi its shabbos mevorchim this week. Whoa!

I opened the book and was uncharacteristically reading a haskama, I thought about whether i should post this and then started paying attention to what I was reading - and that exact sentence said this: "I have looked through the entire work and have seen that everything is written clearly, and it will certainly be a benefit for the public." I didn't find the expected #luvhashem - but hashem wrote me this letter ten years ago and put it in the correct place for me to find it. Everything on that page was related, not by just conjecture to the issue - they answered my questions about this specific plan for growth.

---

BH the day went very well (esp for an addict), and I am making progress BA"H in my learning -- reconnecting with that lost past time.

At night I stayed a bit late, and anyway wanted to finish up something, then there was a tisch/shmooz going on, and I cannot say no to thurs night chulent. Someone from the recent past was there, and I remembered what I thought about then, but it was really disassociated. It's too early to say I didn't think of it at all, but it was so much more faint than before.

The davar was very interesting and quite long, and right when I thought it was not a siman he said "And if you fail miserably..." - by the context I realized he was probably indeed referring to the issue on this site. -- The gist was that: you have to DO, but always remember that it is hashem that is really the one doing. Remember that hashem has you doing, so it is not impossible, but he is not going to just go ahead and do it for you." It connected to the mishakan and shabbos as a giluy for the rest of the week and creation. PM me if you want to know more.

I got home after 1 AM, left on my tzitzis battle armor, woke up for vasikin and didn't want to go, but said I must and went.  I didn't go to the mikvah because I decided yesterday that it was going to be in danger of falling into the enemy's hands/thoughts if I went; so i would not go on friday -- no matter how much I want and make it sound like I should go. Hey, its been almost a week, I am not cured, all roads lead to Rome, but it wasn't built in a day or even 6.

BH the vasikin minyan has really good rugelach and coffee that encourages me to stay afterwards. I also tried to be shover my middas by starting by reading (happened to be mussar) rather than something out loud (eg shnayim mikrah). I was quite tired - It took two cups of coffee and a lot of standing, but I read... and then i went to shnayim mikrah and BH it really flowed well, BA"H, ptoo ptoo. Shishi and shviyee would have taken a lot longer if I started with them.

----

BSD today will be day 7. After hearing the shmooze I realized that the yeshiva's rabbeim have likely dealt with this issue before, and I should find one next week and let him know about me... and have someone in the real world. I also plan to make a donation to GYE about the time I BH reach 18 days.

Many times I said: this time is different; this time I will do it right.
I have good reason to believe that this time is actually different. I must be vigilant and keep going this way and not Ch"v getting sidetracked by the little chump! I must continue my growth and refuse to wallow in myself. I am even postponing the teshuva for aveira aspects (eg: oy, I am an avaryan. oy, I should be punished) until after the first month -- to not be poseach peh lasatan. Right now, my teshuva is to pull myself out of the pit and grow.

I will try to remember this thought that came to me between dunks yesterday - habah letaher mesayin lo, but also hatovel vesheretz beyado. The one who wants to become holy will be assisted, but also a person who tries to purify himself with a rat still in his hand will not be pure. --- the world around us is a rat, its filthy, venomous, and will infest every place I allow to get dirty by not proactively keeping clean.

another long one...

-- Not trucking along! I am trucking forward!

- Renee

mi shegmolchu tov, he yigmolchu kol tov selo
613! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
Thats the way forward just with NOwing it!

Dear Renee,

If you don't mind my asking--how do other people in your life fit in to this whole story?

--Elyah

Hello Mr. Backto613,
I just read your whole thread. 2 feelings. Very impressed at how worked out and thorough you are with yourself, and I really hope the last few two have been succesfull for you.

I thought to add my 2 cents. You'll find around million times on this forum the importance of winning only "one day at a time" (several thousand of them were written to or from me). It's tough but crucial. I think that included in the idea is to look at the struggle in general - and maybe even everything in life - as simple as possible. Deep insights are great, but if it raises our feet from the ground it can be equally dangerous.

What's the goal? To stay clean today. I hear something that can help, think it's worth a try - go for it. I don't need to get to the deepest root of the issue now, just to make sure today is a step foward and not backward.

I'm working on this now and it seems to really be helping me (my issue is mainly "simple" M.), maybe tommorow I'll realize I'm missing the boat - but I'll worry about it then.  Whenever I read something new here I immediately have tons of ideas about if it's right or wrong or why it's exactly like or not like that etc.. I'm working on sticking  to the bottom line - its good? take it, not good? leave it.

I'll tell you a secret, the best of us have all fallen after joining, I was soooooooo depressed the first time several months ago, but iv'e learned it's more important (and way harder) to learn how to get up than to never fall. Wer'e addicts, sometimes the going gets really tough, we must remember to take it one day at time - a fall means today (or a little piece of today) was lost, but time marches foward and I'm gonna march with it.

My brother, thats where I'm holding, I sort of felt from your posts that you may find this usefull, many times you reminded me of my complicated self.

Hatzlochoh!
MB

Mefatfait Beyitzro wrote on 17 Mar 2012 23:13:

Good point.

I would add, also--I once prided myself on my deep insights and my profound understanding of myself, my thoughts, and my emotions.  I thought it was an asset.

Along the way, I learned that part of this addiction is being isolated from other people; being inside my head too much.  I have since let go of a lot of this type of thinking, and I feel I am in a much healthier place because of it.  I feel there is less of a boundry--less of my own thinking--putting space between myself and others.

--Elyah

Elyah,

Good morning. BH all is well. I had a "bris" last night. Today is the eighth day and last night the shiur happened to just be about milah (unusual to only cover one topic)...

I have very much to say BH but not enough time now, I have to get there before my chavrusa does... mainly because I had wanted an earlier time ...

In any case. I frimly believe that each person had their unique struggle and unique way to deal, even if so many elements overlap, we still have very "different faces." I fell so many times saying, just today, just this week and just this chodesh. The chump then says okay, and "after that?" then after that it got me. bang! I tried this method between 15 and 20 times to different degree. BSD maybe later today I will list out in short my methods.

Hatzlachos Rabos!

I just realized that yesterday may have been 8 and today nine, or was today eight?... I'll check later

gtg, ttyl

Ksheim shenichnas lebris kein yikoneis letorah, lechupa, ulemaasim tovim!!

KUTGW!!!!!

Yalla yalla yallili........

Gevura!

backto613 wrote on 18 Mar 2012 12:45:


I think, overall, there are an awfully lot more similarites than there are differences.

--Elyah

Okay now I have a little bit more time. My posts have been getting long because I want to write everything down in case I need to read them again and I want to share everything. Therefore, I will try BN to keep the first part logical and the later parts as streams of consciousness to save time.

Once again, I cannot comment on what works for you I can only say what I see from myself. I read through your comments, and was really curios about something. BH I have not fallen since I started. The advice you are giving - one day at a time, and many people fall - would have made sense to give to someone right after a fall. BH today is the ninth day -- and BSD tomorrow will be the 10th the 11th and next week will 18th... for some that is tough, for me it is inspiring. I do appreciate your comments, but I would suggest they be more applicable for someone else.

I do use one day at a time though. As I mentioned, I am trying to make growth and develop from day to day. On shabbos I thought about "what am I going to do when i run out of ideas?" Then on Motzai Shabbos - I realized one day at a time, do the things I think of today and next week I can add on what I think of next week... don't worry about the extras until then.

One your comments about the root cause. My rebbeim used to say that your life/yahadus/etc is domeh to a building if you make a bad foundation or none at all then the building can look great and go high but is bound to fall. and you need to always add levels. I tried to many times to quit the habbit and keep whatever I thought was not connected -- they were the cracks in my foundation. Every time they mentioned or showed pritzus on tv, I was cracking the foundation a little bit more. If you have trouble with the root then you could try without it; I happen to think that is a recipe to get into the avoidance rut... constantly hiding from your demons.

On your comments about insights. Yes I too had many stages of insights where they were all false. However, I suspect that most people would actually suggest to do deep introspection rather than ignore the root problems and just fighting the symptoms everytime they hit. As Rav Amnon Yitzchok says - if you close the window you won't need to keep adding blankets and layers of clothing.

On relationships, BH I have a great relationship with those around me. 

At this point stream of consciousness starts - it is meant for everyone, so if you have questions, please PM me...

On friday someone asked me if I heard about the tyler clemente case, roommate committed suicide after being taped with another man, the taping roomate was sentenced to 10 yrs. I was curious about the case, but wan't watching tv so didn't know but then realized this was such perversions, I started ranting out about how at its core this is why america is sodom and amorah. They take that which is good and make it bad... essentially the pervert is the sick one and the roommate did the right thing in a bad way. further america is training us to just accept these people and then it becomes wrong to say anything against them and then we punish etc.. it is such a bad path. I really felt distanced from that whole situation during my tirade (continued on for 15-20 minutes) I was warned though not to be real world public with what i said. On shabbos realized - perhaps that is the tafkid of all those with some association with this problem to feel a connection so that they can become outraged any time it comes up and to be the ones to teach BN"Y not to accept or get involved. The more aggressive you become the more it will be good for you and BN"Y.

Friday realized that it is shabbos mevorchim ergo R"Ch nissan coming up and yom kippur katan. Checked it was on shabbos, so must be thursday. BSD maybe I will tovel, fast at least until the yk"k service and try to say more tehilim. (I have been saying each yoms)

Friday night with freinds, got back in the wee hours and went to sleep. On shabbos morning went to hashkama minyan - didn't wake up for neitz - the rabbi visited and spoke -- parshas parah - saying kli cheres gets tumah only from within - we are kli cheres - made out of the adama - and so we get tumah from the inside - and the only way to avoid it is to lock it out and not to let the outside secular world into our hearts. I further thought to add that a kli cheres is only tahor if you break it and start over - the root and foundation shpiel.

BH, spending a lot more time learning lately. I tried this before but the learning did not grow while I had the tumah in me and did not affect the tumah on its own. I needed to root out my outside influence and almost immediately everything was getting better. What is it like now: I go to sleep later and wake up much earlier, yet BH I am less tired. I am not hungry as much and often eat because it is mealtime more than from an inner feeling. Things seem to just happen more quickly as well. I also think that my vision is better than before. Not feeling the need to eat chocolate and candy. This morning I woke up for dunking and neitz -- and during my post shachris learning I hardly touched my coffee and wasn't hungry despite the lack of cakeness. [During motzai shabbos shiur I started writing yood kay vuv kay with my fingers on the table and it really seems to keep me from falling asleep. I do it much now.]

I thought about where I will grow now. Then I thought about being mishaber my middos. I started wearing my shirts in a different way, then realized that was the yetzer trying to regain ground, because the reason I'm doing it was to take some territory away from it. I figured I should do more chessed and start with my closet - and perhaps give away something that I want to keep. I also think I should eat the same meal every day for lunch for the next few days... it can also keep me from under-eating. Then we were sitting and I had something to "contribute" to what someone else said and decided to stay quiet ... this was a stubborn middah, even though I know that very few people appreciate the third person adding two cents to a moot point. Did it a few times on shabbos.

I needed to shut out all my outside/secular influences as a real push for growth -- BH I did that and hashem has really helped me along by leaps and grounds. I must keep writing this log so that I do not forget from where I started, and how I fell, and how I get up. This should be a sign to not fall again. I also write this to keep me thinking about what I am doing.

I wondered on shabbos afternoon if I would ever get over the urges completely. Then I happened to get up to something in my learning that dealt with the issue and reminded me of similars. Something along the lines that hashem and chazal recognized that there is always a strong yetzer which is why they instituted so many things to be constantly vigilant. The occasional yetzer is natural, its the pervasive constant thoughts that are the problem. BH I have been getting very limited urges to do something, and they are so much weaker than before -  like night and day. YHR this continues and that it grows weaker and I grow stronger.

Shmeichel said to keep yourself busy busy all the time -- tried that, then I get a minute with my thoughts and it comes. I think it better to address the issues and deal, rather than working the same hard each time.

One day at a time - for growth, but to deal its good for some especially at the beginning, but if you still have a tough time getting through the day after a week of not doing it then you may have a bigger problem. I used to tell the yetzer at least today, and so it waited and would eventually get me. Now I just say no, keep saying no, not today, not tomorrow not ever. Just being clear about it. It works sooooooooo much better and effectively.

Others that didn't work -
just this - most common, slowest lead
whatever it wants to do in anything else, but this area -- everything is connected so this was the worst idea, yet I tried it abot 5 or 6 times
be clean today/this week/this chodesh -- and then --- go away and stay away, this choidesh, next and forever
keep staying distracted
replacement with other good feelings and stuff -- material encouragement is terrible for me.
stopping gradually --- are you kidding?!

I'll try to think of more BN so that I don't tell myself to go back to secular world, because any other idea will not work for me -- may work for you

I have to run to mincha... so I will not be looking over what this actually says .. I hope it makes sense

--- Renee

Whatever works for you, keep on doing it.

--Elyah

Hello Future Renee and everyone else,

I just read through yesterday's post, and i understood it. I hope it wasn't too bad for anyone interested.

I need to make a confession ---

This summer I learned how an airplane takes off. I used to think it just drove over to the runway, hit the gas, zoomed and up and away. No, it takes a process of driving around the airport, guided by the tower, finds the right runway, gets cleared to go, it starts, it builds up, it builds up, it builds up .... the air under the wings gets faster (than the air above) and faster and faster, it reaches 100 knots, the captain says "rotate," and right away up to 1 million tons of metal suddenly starts to float and then it starts to fly and then soar, on the ground it was clunky and hardly moved, immediately after "rotate" it gains speed and height very quickly and soars to thousands of feet within minutes and then to tens of thousands of feet!! -- if you don't get chills, then you need to read that again, and realize that I am also talking about my journey.

Yesterday I was learning mussar and it dealt with gradual growth and a ladder, etc. I remembered that my story did not start on the first day of this log. There has been something missing from this story and I hadn't connected the dots until yesterday. This journey actually started on erev Rosh Chodesh Adar, almost a month ago. I really wanted to stop, said all of tehilim, i think from erev through the second day of R"ch, and really wanted to grow in learning. I then started to get back to learning torah. Perspective: I went from serious yeshiva student to just the aliyah in shmve"t, and nothing on some days. I think that was the same time I went to a certain rebbe's kever, and thought about how I really wanted to quit and be a yeshiva bochur again.

It was really a long process. The first week I added a little bit everyday, two steps fwd, one back. Then i fell a week later. Then I started my own log of learning and again some steps forward and some back. I also realized I should watch less tv, again in increments. I also started tallying my clean days. I thought of the taanis as a kapparah. Then I fell that friday night - after seven clean. The next morning, it came into my head that I should go back to this site (went once about a year ago -- it was a bit of trigger last time around) and start my log. It didn't feel like a moment of desperation, it was more like "okay, now you are ready for the log." Yes I have fallen, and yes I have grown very slowly, but BH it is all coming together.

Now that I connect the dots, I realize it has been a long process, but this log only started when I really got off the ground -- I admitted my failings in detail, I accepted to grow, I took control of my thoughts and actions and started to learn what is now a few hours in each day. I have also been saying tehilim, started slow at first and BH now I am up to saying each yom's on the day. Yehi"R last week should be the first full week of each day on the day of many more weeks BSD. Those actions, really resemble the teshuva process I learned about years ago, but never internalized. In reality, my journey back to 613 is not on its tenth day, erev rosh chodesh will actually mark one month. I fell twice (the first of which included quite a few times), r"l, but I am now on my feet and I have "rotated!" I feel myself sometimes flying and sometimes soaring every day! I didn't even connect far enough back until this morning my mom asked if I wanted to go to the rebbe's kever again today, now I definitely want to go.

I must also confess, that I do not like the 12 step idea, I would prefer to follow the Jewish process rather than try to run after what the secular world conceived. I want to learn through seforim specific for teshuva like the rambam on teshuva. I also plan to keep this log for at least 90 days of cleanliness, and likely beyond, but I think that the change in personalities only takes 49 days -- as we see during sefira, a better source of truth. There is a concept of 90 times in halacha to break or get in to a habit. After 49 days I believe the personality can change --- its the internal, essential part of the person that connects with and desires this wretched chreft, until 90 days it remains as a habit -- it is no longer a nagging part of you, but still a something that you are in danger of doing --- after and additional 41 days, that too can be removed.

However, the personality change must be to the root and not the symptom. If you just work on the symptom, you are working just as hard on day 80 as you were on 10 -- it's only logical. I currently believe that the middas that lead to symptoms are two -- gayva and tayva.

gayva - haughtiness - I did not think I had it. and I bet that many others do not think so. BUT I AM NOT SO HUMBLE. what is gayva? gayva means that you think you are smarter, faster and better than others. It means that you think by closing the shades and locking the doors no one will know about you. It means that if you go on private browsing and delete cookies from within flash player no one will ever find out. It means that if someone suspects you of anything bad you immediately must correct them (it is misinformation, after all). Gayva is where you are going to mincha and someone does not drive the minute the light turns green, and you honk them, and when they turn on the left signal a block later you blame the world on them. Does any of this ring a bell?! If you have this and/or similar problems, then you are a baal gayva - not the owner of gayve as literally translated, it is someone who is owned by gayva. When I am owned by such a negative spirit, why am I then surprised about the path where my chump leads me?!

Tayva - indulgence - an obviously related trait, but I thought it was only in this issue. Oh, no, quite wrong!! Tayva can be for food, even if you don't eat much or fancy -- if there is good cake and you really want it or you hold back a few minutes, all proud of yourself, and the run like its the last water in the desert. Did I finish the whole chocolate bar? Tayva is that I get 8 hours of sleep on shabbos night, okay 10, fine! it was like eleven or twelve but its winter! Then I still sleep 2 or 3 hours on shabbos afternoon! I didn't go to learn. of course not! I am owned by my tayva. Now that I get closer to six hours a night and wake up before the sun rises, and do not nap in the afternoon -- like I did as a baal tayva with 7-8 hrs a night! -- I start to see that I was not in control, my tayva was, and now I am starting to realize that Hashem is the one calling the shots. Clearly, I am a baal tayva, so why would I be so surprised that the tayva led me to such steep slopes, through dark alleys (not literal) and into a river of streams from horses!

Where does that lead me? I need to break these middahs, and others I find to be related or just bad. As the mussar rabonim said many centuries before the "reparative" schmucks (I mean that it the politest way possible) came around to the idea - teach yourself by doing. The Rambam is famous for having said this ONE THOUSAND YEARS AGO! If you have trouble giving tzedaka, then force yourself to give a little every day until it becomes part of you. If you have a bad middah, then start to act in the opposite way until you start to find yourself in the middle.

I will BN try to start with gayva and tayva -- I don't need to always put in my comments in a shiur or conversation, and I don't need to finish the box of wafers, even if there are only two left. When I started doing those things last week, I started to realize that I am not the great person I made myself out to be. I really do respect all the people fighting their urges day by day, but I cannot stress this enough --- please please please, try this, please look for the root and attack that.. I really think you will find that the inability to fight the urges and perverted inclinations, were not the root, they were a symptom of something rotten inside.

BSD may we all grow, develop, rotate, take off, and SOAR!

don't just truck along! FLY!

One more thing:

Shmeichel and the others were right, and I was wrong. Their intuition was correct, and I did fall after I started. However, I didn't realized that my journey began way before my most recent fall and so this misinformation was the source of tension between us. I hope that the above post clears the air a bit.

best,
Renee

You are so right, the journey does not begin since the last time we fell, it begins as soon as we seriously commit to self-improvement. The falls are part of the process as long as we get right up and continue. And we should use them to teach ourselves what went wrong an apply the lessons to prevent it from happening again.

And I love your airplane moshol (and i like airplanes too ). And I would add that a plane needs to keep moving, that's what holds it up, if it slows down it descends. (Maybe that's why i chose a flying truck as my avatar.)

As far as Middos, I would add a third, Jealousy. "HaKin'a, HaTayva, VehaKavod (=Gaava) Motzi'in Es Ho'Odom....." And the cure is in another Mishna. Eizehu Chochom Halomed Mikol Odom, not to be a Ba'al Gayva and to accept teaching from anyone. Eizehu Ashir Hasomeyach BeChelko, against jealousy. And Eizehu Gibbor Hakoveish Es Yitzro, to restrain our Tayvos. See Tosfos Yom Tov there, he connects it to the Posuk "Koh Omar Hashem, Al Yishales Chochom BiChochmoso....Ki Im Bezos Yishallel Hamishallel, Haskel Veyodoa Osi...". If these middos are misused, there is nothing to be proud of, but if we use them for Avodas Hashem then they are praisworthy. This also is represented in the threee Midos of Bil'am contrasted to Aharon.

And BTW the 12 steps is very much based on breaking the Midos of Gaava and Kin'a, which leads to a lessening of desire as well. I'm not officially doing the steps, but I found alot of inspiration there.

Eye.nonymous wrote on 18 Mar 2012 13:51:


I think Elyah makes an important point here. Focusing on our "different-ness" is counterproductive, it just leads to a downward spiral of shame and self-pity, which makes us want to be that way even more....
Better to concentrate on the common struggle, and the methods we can use to overcome it. And getting out there and participating in activities with and for others is a very important thing to get us out of our "bubble". I often find that the more I am involved with others the less my desires bother me.

Keep On Trucking Flying!!!!

Gevura!