For about three years, I didn't mention my starting date in the groups. I'd just introduce myself and say , "...and I am grateful for today's sobriety"... till my sponsor suggested I start saying my starting date (Feb 28th, 1997) in order to encourage newbies that it really is possible.

Yeah! i finally know when dov is turning 14!
seriously gibbor thanx a mil for this thread. You're doing a great service to humanity [those who r trying to keep their sanity].

strugglingandstrivngBT wrote on 28 Dec 2011 22:07:


Some things are worth a lot of trouble. Gibor120 is so right, friendships are so precious. They are worth a lot of trouble. I daresay SSBT, that your pining for G-d, your need for the comfort of clarity, and your troubles making truly meaningful and useful friendships are related.

You obviously have a lot of hard-won insight into yourself, your challenges, and your needs - so little I'd say would be a chidush to you. But 'inspiration' is the last thing I'd wish for you. It never lasts.

Instead, I wish for you to discover the meaning of friendship like you never did before, this z'man. I believe that however much you feel close to Hashem, you will feel quantitatively and qualitatively closer to Him, after you finally grow close to some of His people. It is so easy for us to 'feel' deveikus. But who knows what we feel - emotions are so hard to really understand and qualify. But once the template has been struck of some true friendship, kinship, and devotion to real, live, members of G-d's people (friends) - you will come to know Hashem in such a way that when depression happens, you will remain close with Him. You will still know that you are depressed - perhaps even severely, R"l, but closeness to my G-d is not as dependent on my feelings as we are often led to believe.

"Rabim mach'ovim lorosho - v'labote'ach baShem, Chessed ysovevenhu." Chaza"l comment that the pasuk implies that even if one is a rosho - still, if he is trusting of his G-d then Chessed (love) will surround him.

If a rosho can have that, then certainly a depressed person can.

Continued hatzlocho!!

If you were born cursed, then I believe the only curse is this:

Women are on a pedestal for you. The 'untouchables'. The seperation from them in school - as if they are somehow poisonous...the story in 1st grade (and your reticence to spell out exactly what happenned)...I guess your definition of 'pure pritzus' is nudity of women...this yearning to be close to an "isha" - it proves that deep down inside, you truly believe  that they and their nudity are powerful and precious to you. But they are not powerful. They are weak, just like you and me. They are not more precious than you or I are. They are just real, regular, people with the same worries and pains as you, me, and the rest of the world. They are not "isha"s and not things to 'gotta get close to'. They are people.

I am not lecturing you - you know all this in your head and I suspect always have. So I am not addressing your head. I am addressing your heart. Your heart is twisted, and sees value where there really is none.

Like most teenage boys with the tabboo of naked woman - they become powerful and valuable to us, and then when we discover masturbation they become like gasoline to the lust engine inside. It consumes, and satisfies...at first. Eventually it only consumes and does not satisfy. So we start searching for kinkier and riskier stuff. It stops being fun any more.

Ashrecha if you are ready to give it up. Please, please drop thinking and figuring it out. Just live clean today and don;t even consider what tomorrow will bring. You cannot do anything about it today, at all. Did anyone in the human race ever successfully go to the bathroom today - for tomorrow?! Never. You can only do today's work today, and will have to do tomorrow's work tomorrow. There is no trick, no gimmick, and no segulah to "beating" this. Sure, many sell such things. They are about "figuring it all out", "making yourself into a kadosh", "building a wall"...if they work for you, that's great.

If they do not, then you'll still be left with today, for today, and that's it. G-d is with you. Few of us allow Him to help us, even though we daven and daven...we do not change our values! The "race of women" and their powerful nudity retain that pedestal and power for us - and we expect G-d to keep us away from our gold?! We are the ones who give them this power. We can give up that right to have them, and choose to give up our lust just for this day. He will help us, but ein hadovor tolui ella bee.

We have some work to do. And it always and only starts with staying clean today, period. As a friend of mine (another drunk in recovery) used to say, "We can't think ourselves into right living - we can only live ourselves into right thinking."

He was right for giving it up and letting G-d. We were wrong for holding on and playing G-d.

Like most teenage boys with the tabboo of naked woman - they become powerful and valuable to us, and then when we discover masturbation they become like gasoline to the lust engine inside. It consumes, and satisfies...at first. Eventually it only consumes and does not satisfy. So we start searching for kinkier and riskier stuff. It stops being fun any more.

Hatzlacha with whatever you are doing, my friend.

BTW, I have never really understood the idea that I have heard many times on GYE that, "I'll try x, y and z... and - if they do not work, then my last resort is the 12 steps."

The fact that one who is not deeply motivated will not get off their buttocks and do some hard work is understandable. The part I don't get is why the 12 steps are looked at as something other than just being honest with ourselves. Can life possibly be expected to work well without that? Especially for a person with a big, bad habit like schmutz - can change ever be expected without rigorous self-honesty?

It is not complicated, very simple, and very powerful to be simply honest with ourselves. I see it as Derech Eretz which is clearly kodmah laTorah, and believe with my whole heart that although there are certainly many ways other than the 12 steps to find recovery and sobriety, those of us who are blessed to have the progressive, chronic, and fatal disease of sex/lust addiction (or really any addiction) and find recovery in using these 12 principles, are blessed with a beautiful and real living experience in every respect.

I see the 12 principles (steps) as coming from Torah just as any advice in Pirkei Avos does. They are just about learning to be real with ourselves, with G-d, and with our fellow man. That's all. Isn't that a Torah value?

OK, Kosher, what would you like to know about me?

But really, I must admit to you that the reason i do not share more intimate and potentially identifying details about myself here on the forum is because I do not consider this forum a venue for my own recovery and do not favor it as such for others, either.

Yup, I said it. 

The forum is virtual. While that gufa provides people with a buffer so they can at least open their mouths to someone, at the same time, it is a huge weakness for reality - we can put on virtual faces (and do). Reality - the stuff that affects us on an emotional level, has been the big difference foe me and many others I who know. The porn makes our hands shake, breathing shallow, and heart race....and so does coming to your first 12-step recovery meeting, SA international conference, or shabbatons for frum, recovering sexaholics and their families. The real thing feels real. The weakness of the forum is that I doubt many here have ever had nearly the phisical reaction while posting something as they did while they were struggling with acting out their lust. So how can it possibly be as real?

Hey, for many of the young fellows on this forum, virtual faces is exactly how they have been acting out all along! Staying virtual is a good thing then? I think not.

And nothing will change that, it seems. And yet that makes the forum and GYE perfect for exactly what it is, as far as I am concerned:

The perfect gateway into recovery for many suffering yidden and their families. So far, I have met (and keep in regular contact with) about 10 guys who have been introduced to in-person recovery groups as a result of their contact with GYE people, and are doing very well, thank-G-d. That is a huge number, really. Huge.

We need to all keep on working together, because we all have a lot more to do for klal Yisroel!

So do you want me to post a picture of myself on the forum? Why? Will it help my recovery?

ben durdayah wrote on 13 Feb 2011 11:48:
Yes. Actually, what other option is there? The only problem is that in this virtual world how do you know that the person (or people) you are opening up to will have any schoirah at all for you beyond sympathy? True, love is very important - perhaps the most important ingredient in recovery. But it is so easy for a person who has never gotten any time away from his own problem to spew tons of well-intended advice to every other person in the universe. There is no evidence that any of it is 'battle-tested' for you cannot see the look on his face and do not know this person, at all. All you've got is a kitsch username and very nice sounding words!

Nu. Support and encouragement it certainly is. But anybody who R"l has cancer and wants a support group goes to real cancer survivors. Not a group of folks who just read some books written by cancer survivors and felt very sympathetic to the problem.

We all share a precious thing here on GYE: we are all people drawn together by different expressions of the exact same obsession: lust. I am only really interested in sharing what is actually working for me to keep my zipper up or my eyes closed. That's the only schoirah for me here.

Thanks for the chizzuk, though!! :o

Ok. It does a few things. First and strangest, I owe something to the person I am lusting after because lusting is always an act of "taking". I am using their image for selfish ends. (And saying that "They are obviously begging for it cuz look at how they are dressed!" is BS. I am reasonably certain that the average slutty female out there intends to be lusted after by who they want to be lusted after, not by some compulsive, perverted Jew boy like me.) So how better to show my gratitude?

Second, lusting is the single most powerful, portable, and dependable way I exercise my MEEEEE muscle (the one in my head, not somewhere else ). It is my drug of choice for entertaining myself, for covering up stress, fear, and boredom, for controlling my inner environment - in short, it is my most trusted Power source. Otherwise, why would I use it so much?  So how do I sacrifice it? By just saying "no"? Nu. OK. That's what I always tried to do.... it didn't get me very far away from it. If you know anything about operand conditioning or habits, then you know that I choose to go a step further and use my lust as a guide and tool for giving power to others. To helping me learn to care about helping others. What better way to weaken the MEEEEE muscle than to do what little I can to care about the very people I naturally worship as my (false) Power Source? I turn the tables as much as I can.

Finally, it gives me something to focus on rather than on lusting. And that itself is worth everything, even if my prayers for her are of no benefit to her. Treating a lust object like the real, live person they are is one of the most powerful tools to help me to stop looking at them like pieces of meat (with skin on them). We need to be reoriented. The entertainment and porn industries have succeeded in getting so many of us to believe deep in our hearts that pretty women are all dolls; that above all else they are libidos desperate to be used by us; and that they don't have real lives with obligations, pains, joys, sadness, and dreams of real people... and that perspective entitles us in our hearts to treat them as objects. Is it any wonder then, that most lust addicts grow to expect (no, demand) sexual bliss from their wives as though their feelings are just an obstacle? I looked into the shulchan aruch to see what I could demand of my wife, rather than looking into her heart... now what kind of BS is that? No wonder we were so miserable back then! She was an object, in some respect.

We need exercises to change, it will not happen just because we wish it to. And it takes a long, long time. But it works and it is worth it.

A caveat: I was once walking with an SA beginner who was staring at the rear end of a lady out in front of us, and mumbling. I asked him what the heck he was doing. He told me that he was praying for her.... I reminded him that he might be praying for her butt, but not for her. Ha. We both had a laugh went on our way. So the praying can't be done as an excuse to keep staring! A sweet dufus, he was.

Asking for help is a great thing to do. But it is unlikely that anyone can expect help if they are calling out from behind the safe walls of their impenetrable castle.

If I hide behind a username - that's one stone wall;

If I use no other person to tell the full and actual details of what I am doing, to - that's another stone wall; 

Thinking I can get away with just saying "I looked at porn" - that's another stone wall;

Conveniently isolating by not staying in regular communication with other safe people who share the same problem I have - that's another wall;

Engaging my brain in lots and lots of deep, personal "teshuvah avodah" - that is another impenetrable stone wall...for it builds a giant edifice of self-centered isolation - a romance with my "neshoma". Gevalt. That is not yiddishkeit. It's actually more like Buddhism...perfection for the sake of achieving perfection. Hashem asks not for us to be kedoshim, at all - but rather, to be kedoshim leylokeichem. (see Sfas Emes on that pasuk) And guilt and fear of punishment may have worked to make good Jews in the time of the Shaloh haKodosh, but not today. Not with any guy who can look at movies of naked people. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Enough with the ruchniyusdikeh roller-coaster...from rosho muschas one minute to Tzaddik Yesod Olam the next....that's not real Yiddishkeit, either. It's all a game in the head, till it's over.

It's over.

Alexeliezer is so right. So how about looking for actions to take instead of wishing or even begging for help? Ein hadovor tolui ella bee.

Sadly, or luckily, I cannot keep myself clean. I am an addict, and cannot stay clean. My G-d must keep me clean or I will lose everything. This is not just a game or 'religious-sounding' talk. The ein hadovor tolui ella bee means that I need to let Him in - and only I can do that...nobody can do it for me - even Hashem Himself! He does not do that.

It is quite possible that you are not an addict, and that you really do not need G-d to give you a daily reprieve from your obsessions, as I do. But you are failing, sir, and need more than just 'asking others to save you', now

Take healthy, real actions today. And I hope you do not give thought to trying to stay clean for a week, a month, or the rest of your life...just today. And that's not a little mind-game, either.

You are really trying, really reaching out. You are one of the lucky ones, chaver.

Blind Beggar wrote on 17 Dec 2011 17:09:


There is a very tznuah non-triggering girl sitting next to me and she is in great distress about something. I feel the tears almost coming out of my eyes and I was able to daven for her sincerely.
I am not such a monster after all.

No, you are not. And I daresay that your requirement for demanding sincerity is a bit weak. Funny. I have seen atheists become men who have a G-d - simply by following their sponsor's instructions to just "pray anyhow, even though you do not believe in G-d!".

But "oh, no, I've gotta be sincere..." - coming from a person who is accepting using women's images against their will to feed his sexual fantasies - that's OK?

Yeah, so one may say that,

1- "Wadayamean!? It's not against their will. If you saw how they dress you'd know that they want me to imaging them naked and use them!"

Then I simply ask you to speak to them and plainly tell any one of them that you are imagining her wearing no clothes and that you are fantasizing about her in bed with you....see how that goes.

That "they are asking for it" is a subtle and convenient lie we tell ourselves, plain and poshut. A lie. Yes, they are wrong for dressing that way - but their intention is not our way of interpreting it. The same excuse is common among religious fundamentalists the world over: "She asked to be raped by dressing that way". A lie. She did not really want it to go that far. Why is it so OK for us to have our cake and eat it too - yet when other people do things like that, we demand they pay the consequences and take away their right to play the game of acting naughty without being treated that way. It's like saying all mountain climbers (yes, it's an idiotic thing to do to risk one's life climbing mountains because they are there) deserve to die (just as idiotic). That is not what "damo beroishoi" means - and anyhow, that is only for the beis din shel ma'aloh, never for us to take action on. Theydon't want to die!

Just like we guys have wanted so many times to look at porn, or even to touch ourselves - but without actually spilling zera. And so many times we got to that point of no return with shock and disappointment: "Hey! I wanted to stop a second ago! Iv'e been cheated! Ayyy!" I have certainly been there many times.

C'mon. Why the double standard? If I can be a little dishonest for my lust escapades, then I feel it's OK for me to be a little dishonest for recovery. If you must, "L'olam y'hei odom orum byir'ah."

and when people say,

2- What? I don't "accept"my using women - I am fighting it in me tooth and nail!"

To that, I remember that when I habitually do something it proves that for all practical purposes, I condone it in my heart. That is what na'aseh lo k'heter means. Yes - morally, intellectually I may fight it within myself, cry, etc. But if I tend to do it, if I do desire it deeply, then it is part of me. Sorry. Not a good part of me...but I gotta face that and ask G-d to remove it, cuz I don't want it any more. And incidentally, when guys say, "I have asked Him to take it away so many times, and He hasn't!" It hurts to say it, but the truth plainly is that they are not really ready for Him to remove it. Or they are - and then they take back the luxury if playing (and fighting) with it. Yes, it is a luxury. A luxury that I cannot afford. But we all think we can play both sides of the fence at some point. Growing up is very, very hard...at least it is for me.

Hmm...Maybe people praying for me should be discouraged! After all, the unvarnished. whole truth about our lust problem - especially at our worst moments is - so ugly that maybe only the greatest tzaddikim could be sincere loving us - and praying for us? Hmmm...can they?

Yes, they can - and if they can't, then I beg them to read the first part of this email and pray for me and you, anyhow.

Maybe it is time we went a bit 'above' seichel sometimes, for our own recovery. But it is scary to let go of even that, no?

Ooh, nice. That's beautiful!

But asking yourself if you could do what Yehudah did is unfair to you, for these reasons:

1- Yehudah was certainly not an addict and he was not in a battle to save his own life and sanity. No one deserves a medal for 'having the bravery to run out of a burning house and save themselves'. Is it 'brave'? Well, sort of...but we don't generally reward anyone for having enlightened self-interest and doing what is totally and overpoweringly natural anyway. But what Yehudah did was much, much harder. The guy who really has a bad problem, is really in trouble - and all he is willing to do about it is veiter hide behind a username and give hidden people a peek at his virtual dirty laundry - really does not even care about himself enough to sacrifice a bit of his precious ego to save himself! That's a pity...

A CPR teacher once told me that if you are ever at a dinner table and one person surprisingly and silently rises and walks away, presumably to go to the restroom...follow him. For he may be choking on food. Usually people excuse themselves when they really need to go to the bathroom. The fact is that a person is often so ashamed of choking in public - it is very embarrassing, kind of like sneezing and having mucus on my face right there in shul! I desperately cover my face looking nervously for a tissue - don't you?

Many people would rather hide while they try their hardest to cough it out, even if it means they may pass out in the bathroom - they (we) always believe in our heart of hearts that right before we really pass out we'll run out and get that help, should our private efforts utterly fail.

Same thing here. We have mucus all over us...our maybe another bodily-fluid-that-shall-not-be-named...  And the first thing we are instinctively desperate to do is HIDE!! Quick!!

Gevalt. Hiding behind a username is perfectly OK for those who don't need to get more help. But I watch some who are failing and see it for them as a slow, safe, death. Like the guy who will eventually pass out in the bathroom choking, R"l, and be found later by someone...too late for him, too late for the wife, too late for the children.

2- On the other hand, Yehudah was not admitting that he was a mess - just that he did a single very embarrassing thing;

2- Yehudah had no electricity so he could not log onto GYE even he wanted to. So he had no other breyrah.

2- how many 2's are there?

2- k    i    c    h    s    a

Some people have found that when they cannot seem to accomplish what they'd like with their wives verbally - they write their feelings and what they'd like to say, to their wives. Then they ask them to write a response back to them.

I would strongly suggest handwriting, not emails. There is something cheap about emailing - people say things they do not really mean, do not really believe, and then "click!" Kind of fake, like I am behind a mask. That's why people get into so much trouble at work firing off nasty emails at co-workoers or bosses...then regretting it. They'd never have said that, nor written it in a real letter.

Also, when my wife and I get into a tizzy and cannot communicate, we have "a meeting of two". Adhering to the Robert's Rules of Order (as in typical 12-step meetings), we each take turns sharing our feelings and thoughts and are careful not to use the second-person. We speak about how we each feel and make reference to each other in the thrird-person, only. We do not interrupt ach other, and we do not have cross-talk. No cross-talk means that we do not respond directly to anything the other person said. Rather, we express how we feel and think - rather than trying to pull down what the other person thinks or talk about our reaction to what they feel. See, that's where arguments and self-centered power-struggles take hold.

It was very effective, and opened us up to real intimate talking, eventually. It works in marriage and any relationship where the parties feel seriously enough about the relationship to actually take the time to respect eachother enought to do this.

Continued hatzlocha!!