If you had a choice to finally get free of this stuff even without the deveikus, would you agree to that? Or would you still hold out for better - while simultaneously acting out?!!

Some innocent, well-meaning folks here are blinded by the light of Torah and d'veikus. They need to stick a pair of sunglasses on their noses to see that they are tenaciously holding out for gold while sitting in excrement! Is this acceptable? This is where a Jew belongs? Get out of the excrement at all costs, I say! A lifestyle of acting out with lust and lying to our loved ones (and everyone else) is just no place for a Neshomaleh!

After we are out, there will be time for madreigos, on the condition that we remember that it's good enough just to be out of the excrement. Lusting after d'veikus can also be a mistake if the timing is wrong.

Is there teshuva? Have you read the opening of Chovos Halevavos on Teshuvah? He basically says there that teshuvah is just going from doing your own will against His, to doing His Will (or even just to doing His Will better than before). It sounds to me that you are equating "Tikkun" with Teshuvah. You want to get rid of the horrible guilt, I understand. But I ask you how you know that it would that be a good thing at all for you to lose that guilt before you are on the derech of Tahara that you desire so much?

Perhaps the Tikkun will have to come many years hence, and till then you (not any person, just you) will need to retain some of that guilt in order to remind you of the pain and stupidity of acting out so that the next time it strikes (later today) you might get help rather than just isolating and falling again. Is this a possibility you can entertain?

Finally, I'd like to share with you that dumping our guilt, doing "teshuvah" and being accepted again into the life of Tahara, etc., can be a purely self-centered pursuit - just like the screwing around we did before. That has been my experience.

True, getting a filter and the other stuff you mention below is the only way to really exercise commitment, but if you really want to change, then I'd ask you to consider keep working on changing your motivations, rather than mainly on changing your behavior. Looking at the number of days we were sober is silly. It's great, but not a proof of anything. "It is an inside job", they say, and pointing to externals can be a way for us to remain far away from the real problems we have that screw our lives up. And the main motivation many of us share is total self-centeredness. The fact that it's for kedusha or tum'ah is irrelevant, in the end.

Bombarding this problem with energy often just gives it more power. The ikkar might be in remaining busy in being useful to Hashem, His people, and yourself. Focusing on not focusing on the aveiro is probably the silliest thing we can do.

If I Look Down, I'll Fall and Die

Counting the days we are clean can be wonderful for some, but I hope you realize that it can also be - deep within our hearts - a counting of how long we can actually tolerate the (inevitable) buildup until the next time we act out. I believe this is very frequent. It is exactly like climbing up a ladder. I am afraid of heights. If I look back down as I am climbing, once I get to an impossibly high height, my hands and feet begin to shake. I know that I would fall.... so I never climb that high! How high do you want to climb in sobriety? If you are looking back, you will not get very high. We all know that being sober 5 years in a row is just plain impossible... for each of us, the last barrier is the "impossible height". Sure it's BS, but our feelings do not care about sechel very much. It's our Reality, so why pit ourselves against so powerful an adversary?

Instead, my experience in sobriety is like that of a guy walking across an abyss on a 2x8. Now, I have no trouble at all balancing on a 2x8 if I see it's on the floor! But if I see that it is suspended between two high buildings I will certainly panic, lose my balance, fall, and die. Looking down is just plain ossur. So I don't. And I do not count.

For about three years, I didn't mention my starting date in the groups. I'd just introduce myself and say , "...and I am grateful for today's sobriety"... till my sponsor suggested I start saying my starting date (Feb 28th, 1997) in order to encourage newbies that it really is possible.

OK, so I think I rarely do this, but here is some plain old advice:

1 - Get far, far more connected to people than you are right now, SG. This will take time, but it starts right this minute. You are way too isolated though you may not see it.

Funny thing, being married actually creates more loneliness for us types, rather than feeling more connected. For we chronic masturbators know and love isolation and mis-connection only too well. In marriage, the differences between us and our spouses that may have seemed insignificant while we were going out and engaged - get progressively clearer to us as we are married for longer and longer. Sexually, our spouses are always more different than us than we'd like to think. And that's really the tip of the iceberg! The monetary, philosophic, religious, and familial differences between us become more apparent with time. And they are real.

Welcome to real life! Marriage is about how we deal with differences, not about whether they exist.

Marriage is supposed to be a new connection. A connection that leads to what Chaza"l say, "ein ish meis ella l'ishto, v'ein isha meisah ella l'ba'alah". Heck, it is created by a monetary connection, legal connection, or sexual connection (kesef, shtar or biyah) and consumated by the most intimate of connections, sex. But after watching total strangers having sex with total strangers - in front of cameras used by total strangers - for years, as we have...the relationship and intimacy associated with sex is all but reversed! But that's sick, not the truth about sex. And the detachment we cultivate in our own marriages by hiding and faking, is not the truth about marriage, either. It's poison.

If we are normal, we work life's natural problems out with whatever help we can get. We talk about them with our spouses, we go to a rov, friend, parent, and/or shrink and we work on it - whatever we need...and it remains OK to be alive. Sometimes it is even fun!

But if we are addicts, we have this handy-dandy set of tools that are always ready to be used for immediate, fake relief from 'pesky' real life. And we have been running to our fake best friend for years and years! We have one of the tools on our bodies every morning in bed. We have other tools inside our minds from the second moment in the morning till the last moment before we fall asleep each night. We discover other tools when we walk out of the house and see real people on the street or in the office. We discover well-honed tools made out of our resentment, fear, and obsession in shul, the beis midrash, work, our families and in our own homes. These 'bad' tools only multiply - they never get fewer or shrink...until we start to recover from our craziness and self-centered way of seeing everything.

So you have nothing to lose by confronting more and more things that you prefer not to communicate about, not fewer. And that means really connecting with more people in your life, and banishing isolation and self-pity. They suck. And then life will get easier, not harder. It's all about relationships.

Along those lines, I suggest your mornings to be spent with a chavrusa as early as possible for a few minutes before shacharis in the same shul every day so you have a routine. Davening with the same group of guys so you can daven for them is very, very helpful. The nameless, faceless minyan factory is almost as bad as the closet, for me. The connections early in the morning help people like us, a lot. I have a short chavrusa with another recovering pervert in the morning before shacharis. It's a good thing. And we actually learn (when we are both there at the same time!) :.

2- Minimize the time you spend thinking. Mulling things over while you drive, daven, walk places, talk with someone else, are going to sleep...is usually a bad idea. We are never more alone and isolated than when we are deep inside our our thoughts. And they are usually just obsessions, obsessions, obsessions. Replaying stuff, worrying, gnawing thoughts about matters we are not yet willing to actually do antything about....

We need to have something else to do than think our useless and obsessive thoughts. Praying to and talking to our own G-d and really talking to people, are therapeutic. Even thinking about what it is that I am doing right now is a great alternative to the usual stewing and gnawing obsession, that is so typical for us. They say that someone once asked the Kotzker what he should be willing to actually give his life up for. The Kotzker told him, "Whatever you are doing right now." Real life should be one in which we are connected to (that means loving) what we are doing - cuz it is supposed to be precious to us. Right now.

Obviously, any guy (like I can be) who can be on the way to the supermarket, see a pretty woman and go and follow her like it is real important, drooling - does not appreciate the value of going to the supermarket and buying food to eat. Any guy (like I can be) who can be studying for a test and get distracted by a thought of "Hey, wonder who is really pretty on the internet, right now?" and just go check it out...back at athe races - does not appreciate the value of studying for a test. It's precious! What we are doing is precious. There is eternal value in it - Rav Noach, zt"l always talked about how that is just basic yiddishkeit, not 'madreigas'.

That's also the fruit of recovery. For an addict, it is just the entranceway in the lobby - the bottom floor. It's part of his 3rd step (see AA's 12&12 on it).

3- Give up at least a bit on perfectionism.

Especially in recovery, yiddishkeit, and marriage, I need to surrender my goofy and childish perfectionistic expectations. It kills me. We need to be allowed to screw up here and there - be honest and open about it, and go on. All I need to do - all we can do - is keep trying to do the next right thing - not to "be good", or to "be recovered".

4- Don't take unsolicited, free advice from strangers.

If every time I lust in any way, I would react by considering it tantamount to a "fall", there will be many problems. First, it would show that all this is about is what it was always about: Me and my goodness, or badness. As an addict in recovery, practically speaking, I cannot afford to be focused on the scale of the ShLo"H (which I love learning now!), the Yesod Yosef, or anyone else whose goal is kedushas hamachshovah almost as a goal in and of itself. I completely lose my humility that way. Before long, I find myself truly believing that I am "busy with great things (madreigos)", yet masturbating all the same. I went that way for years, gave shiurim for ba'alei teshuva, and masturbated (and worse) until one day by G-d's Grace I grew up a bit and decided that I'd rather be a humble sober kosher Jew, than a star-crossed, kedusha-struggling Jew who isn't sober. I spared myself the hashkofah. I know it sounds horrid to a pumped-up truly well-meaning d'veikus-seekers of today, but it works. And paradoxically, in all my life I have never been as successful in trying to really serve Hashem as I am today. I am not sure I am serving Him, but I sure am trying harder and enjoying it more naturally than ever! B"H I have been able to take on many things and limudim that previously would lead me down a path of "greatness"! Hah. I hope I'm not fooled any more. I am just a sexaholic who is trying to learn the depths of Hashem's Torah and serve Him with all the heart I have left, if he lets me. Even if I will never "get" any reward for it from Him. Being in that army is worth it. By all rights, I shouldn't be allowed in at all.

In SA, our sobriety definition includes no sex with myself, and none with anyone other than my wife. Of course, progressive freedom from the preoccupation with lust is necessary for success with remaining sober, so: If I were to be forcing my wife to have sex, or if I were to be masturbating up until the point that I don't "do the aveiro", or just look at porn all day today, I would certainly lose my sobriety the good ol' fashioned way, in a matter of time. I will need to quit that, or else. So I always do (so far), with His help.

I accept that sexaholics lust sometimes - we do that. Nu. I need to admit any intentional use of lust to my home group and - if I am smart - will call my friends and talk with them about it and admit this new proof of my powerlessness over lust in any meeting I go to... but then "Keep on Trucking!" is what I need to hear and do!

If being sober is not good enough for me, then I say it isn't sobriety I am after, but my own Pride and perfection, masked in religion. That's the way it is for me.

workingmyprogram wrote on 15 Dec 2011 00:30:
G-d is not as stupid as you think He is. Forgive yourself later, maybe in a year from now. Instead, in the meantime, forgive Him and forgive the people around you for the life you have been given by them and their actions. That'll be a tall order and take you till about step 9...probably about a year. To heck with forgiving yourself and all that stuff. Believe it or not, you are not the center of your recovery - G-d is, and other people are...you are actually in third place. Give yourself a bronze medal and move on for about a year sober and working these steps in earnest. Your life and sanity depend on them, as do mine.

Any self-focusing and analysis in the steps serves only to minimize our place at center stage - not to centralizer us even more. As it says in AA (p. 39), we discovered that we are "absolutely unable to stop drinking on the basis of self-knowledge." The steps ae not for understanding - but for acceptance of our limitations. They get us out of G-d's way. As the Kotzker put it,"G-d is only found where people let Him in," and as we know, self-will is the most powerful weapon against G-d that there is. The steps are mainly to reduce self-will and to make at least a baby's start at accepting G-d's Will.

Get yourself out of G-d's way, where you (and I) have been from day one.

Do you understand what I am saying here, or am I doing a weak job of expressing this stuff?

Dov writes to someone who is trying to figure out if he really needs the 12-Step program:

As for me, the question is not whether you need a twelve step program, but whether you are beaten yet. If you believe that there is still hope for you to quit by your own willpower (with occasional chizzuk, of course), then I see no reason to quit trying. I kept trying for years and years and never gave up until I saw that I had really lost, and would only get progressively worse till I lost everything. I saw that I was coming down the pike for some time already but never really did anything about it (beyond the same old silly "trying harder method") until I was forced to.

If this question really bothers you, I would suggest you do what I did and write out your entire lust-use history. From the very first time you recall doing something with lust that you regret or got into some trouble, and continue each behavior till this very day. After you are done, look at the entire pamphlet - better yet (as I did) read it to a trusted person (who will not vomit). Then I believe you will be able to answer your own question.

The only other answer I personally know of, is to go ahead and try to work the 12 steps with a sponsor in a fellowship (like SA, for example) and find out if it is right for you. 5-6 meetings ought to do it. That's a rather tall order for the uncommitted, but some do it. I do not pretend to know whether anyone needs to go to SA and I would never pasken that anyone is an addict, besides myself. These are decisions that my heart tells me an individual must arrive at for themselves. As Rabi Elazar ben Durdaya said: Ein hadavar tolui ella bi. If you do need it, no one can ever surrender to the facts for you, anyway.

Sorry, but there are no gimmicks for addicts. Yes, one can get saved from messing up once in a while by a tip from Chaza"l. Bu Chaza"l were not talking to addicts. And if you are not one, then that's fine - it is not a 'special club', you know.  I have a progressive and fatal chronic illness. I am a pervert in recovery. I am sober with Hashem's help.

This has nothing at all to do with the tips from Chaza"l.

Therefore, I hope and pray you do not offer them up to addicts as a solution. When it does not work for them - and it will not, for the addicts - then they will lose theior trust in Chaza"l and it will be your fault, for leading them on.

Sorry to be blunt. This is my experience, and I am not here to argue with you. Just trying to point out that you are 100% right - for non-addicts.

Saying that Chaza"l were referring to addicts is plainly ridiculous and I would be glad to explain that any time you like, in person or on the phone.

If "rigzu v'al techeta'u, imru bilvavchem al mishkavchem v'domu selah" was referring to addicts, then why did Rav Elazar ben durdaya (probably one of the few mentioned in Chaza"l who was actually an addict) need to die? Why didn't someone just tell him to "drag the menuval to the beis hamidrash", or something, and he'd have quit having sex with the prostitutes?

Yes, the eitzos of Chaza"l are 100% emess and I believe in them, too. But when I say "addict", I am referring to a very sick person, not one who just masturbates cuz it feels so good - like most of the people who hook up to GYE. I am referring to those who are like me: doing it in order to be rid of the obsession; doing it even though it is torture and they DON'T want to; doing it and feeling like they have to or they'll die - until right after they give in and then tearing their hair out, over and over. I am talking about sweet, good yidden (and goyim) who are doing it and living a double life and hating themselves for it. I am talking about people who know that Tikkun Klali and mikvah are nice - but all the mussar shmuessin in the world and all the deveikus at L'cha Dodi - will not stop them at all from having sex with themselves (you call it masturbating or zera levatola), - or worse - again.

Of course, I have nothing against you, at all. It's not in any way personal. Just please consider who you are talking to when you say the truth. The same truth to one person, is a lie for another person and not Hashem's Will for him. Addicts ned medicine, not advice.

But when I say "addict", I am referring to a very sick person, not one who just masturbates cuz it feels so good - like most of the people who hook up to GYE.

I am referring to those who are like me: doing it in order to be rid of the obsession;

doing it even though it is torture and they DON'T want to;

doing it and feeling like they have to or they'll die - until right after they give in and then tearing their hair out, over and over.

I am talking about sweet, good yidden (and goyim) who are doing it and living a double life and hating themselves for it.

I am talking about people who know that Tikkun Klali and mikvah are nice - but all the mussar shmuessin in the world and all the deveikus at L'cha Dodi - will not stop them at all from having sex with themselves (you call it masturbating or zera levatola), - or worse - again.

As Rav Twerski writes, our behavior attests to what we really value the most.

I believe that He put me in this life and I have this problem cuz it was indispensable to me! I needed to become sick enough to need Him, in order to ever have hope of finding Him. Rav Noach Taught me this idea, and I use it this way.

EMERGENCY TOOLS
1. Short prayer, "I'm powerless, please G-d help me!"
2. Move somewhere else. (Get away from the trigger!)
3. Pick up litter.
4. Sing (or hum) a favorite tune.  Or listen to music.
5. Call someone from the program or the forum NOW.  (Or post)
5. Get to a meeting AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.  (Get to the forum)
6. When you're angry:  Ask yourself, "What am I ashamed of right now?"

I agree that simply not having sex with myself or anyone other than my wife is still not nearly 'enough'. It's a negative sobriety, and not a recovery of anything. But we ought to be honest with ourselves and admit that once we really stop masturbating or using porn compulsively, we find ourselves in a place where - had we really been there all along - we'd never had really felt this desperation for getting all the good things of recovery, anyhow! We'd bleib coasting - like most people are and will be, till they die. Interestingly, then, it is my sickness that saves me from the unexamined life, not my 'greatness'.

By the same token, this is the only reason that this very day I still need G-d as much as I ever did: to live life in a way that doesn't just look or sound good, but actually works. I need it, while the do-gooders do not. And it was the addicts who taught me that being clean from acting out (ie., sobriety) is only vauable inasmuch as it is the gateway to being able to come to live life right - if one is an addict. That's recovery. It's not about 'being good', nor about being 'a better person'.

This is what the 1st step means when it says 'Powerless' (to use lust successfully) and that our lives are 'unmanageable'.

Addicts have a cyclical, repeating, and progressively worsening habit. It eventually sucks the life out of us, isolates us from all others, makes us disgusted with ourselves and with others, makes us need to have a double life... and ruins more and more of our lives every year that goes by.

My biggest challenge was actually believing that G-d would actually take care of me even though I was ugly.

Convincing myself that 'I was not so ugly' was totally not what I needed! Rather, I needed to come to understand that Hashem loves the ugly people, too!

But here is the point: I do not have to see that beauty - I just have to believe that somehow, G-d can see it. I do not even have to ever see it and need no evidence that it exists. That He saved me does not prove to me that I am indeed worthy - it proves that He loves me. And being cared for (meaning: loved) by G-d is the only worthiness that means anything to me.

Also, I did not need to work the steps in order to get sober. The main thing I credit with getting me sober was actually the pain of my acting out. I had enough of it, because it was so bitter. Hashem threw me forcibly on the path of recovery ... He was so good to me, for He made my addiction excruciatingly painful. Until I had no other option than to give up acting out my sex fantasies - though I could not stop.

I can be ugly and He loves me a ton anyhow. He brought me - a masturbating and desperately porn-using, frum yid - to recovery! When did he lay the groundwork for that? After I got better? No. He did it all for me while I was on my knees in the bathroom masturbating. That's Chessed - the teitch of Chessed is that onedoes not deserve it.

I spent decades in yeshivah being told that if only I'd get good enough, I'd finally be able to stop masturbating. If I'd get my da'as clean enough, my mesiras nefesh big enough - then I'd be liberated! I believed hook, line and sinker, that if I'd learn Mesilas Yeshorim, sifrei yir'ah with hispaylus, shimush talmidei chachomin, chumash and gemorah, and did chessed and teshuvah well enough, then I'd be straight in the head enough that this behavior would be below me, finally. I was sincere....I thought.

But it did not work, obviously, and I discovered that I could not stop acting out my lust, because the only fool-proof method I knew to get free of it was to do it!

Finally I could not afford to act out any more, and had to stop. It wasn't that Hashem needed me to stop, but that I needed to. I was losing my humanity and could not accept that - not because of what you are calling self-love, but because of the survival instinct. I do call that self-love, as I wrote to you earlier.

I was ma'arich, as usual. Gevalt! Sorry if I lost you, or anyone else. But I have no interest in heartwarming drashos or what sounds nice - all I want is what works.