ZemirosShabbos wrote on 15 Sep 2011 19:00:

Ok zemmy, your speaking yiddish in my house, so kol mah sheyomar lecha baal habayis asei (chutz metzei - some girsaos).  Please translate.  I got some of it, ubber not all of it .
Uncle Google? right? but don't tell???

it iz meaning like dis:

ubber: but

zug nisht: don't tell

far keinem: anyvun

and uncle google is right. he's a brother in law with uncle sam

ZemirosShabbos wrote on 15 Sep 2011 19:10:

This is the piece, I was missing. Thanks. You can add learning yiddish to the things we get from GYE, although I get the impression that a lot of people already know it.  I know only a bissel

ZemirosShabbos wrote on 15 Sep 2011 17:12:


The true rock of truth

I originally wrote this as an email to Dov, but I thought others might benefit from his reply and have some good ideas of their own, so I am posting it as an open letter to Dov and others are welcome to chime in as well.

Open letter to Dov:

I am going to try and (succinctly) summarize where I am currently holding.

My wife found out 2+ years ago that I had a problem with looking at porn and masturbation.

We went to our rav and he told us to make gedarim and I should tell my wife how I am doing every so often.  This has been working B"H and I have been sober since then (meaning no masturbating and no porn).

I have definitely had some times where things got difficult, but I have stayed sober.  I found GYE a few months ago and I have learned a great deal since then.  I have been able to be more open with my wife and our relationship has grown.  I have a much better understanding of what I am dealing with, although I am still unclear about many things. 

I know I need to "get out of isolation".  The idea of getting "right sized" really hit home.  I never realized how addiction was related to being self-centered.  I have thought a lot about these things.

However, one major theme I have read is that recovery is not about "figuring it out" or "understanding" it.  It's not even about "wanting" it.  (I've done all that for a long time and, as you've pointed out numerous times, it didn't do much to change my actions.)  It's about "action".  The way you put it once was "You cannot think yourself into right living. You can only live yourself into right thinking".

So this is where I am stuck right now.  What specific "actions" can I do?

I think I can gain from a network of safe people to share my struggle with.  I can gain from making an honest assessment of myself and sharing it.  I can gain from giving to others rather than being "self absorbed".  I can gain from "letting go" and not needing to be perfect. (some of this needs to be put into more "concrete" terms in order to take action)

I know that you only share your experience, and your experience has been to do use the steps in a live group setting.  I'm not sure if that is what I need.  I feel like I'm in this middle ground where 12 steps may be more than what I need.  On the other hand, mesilas yesharim is not going to do the trick either.

My question in a nutshell is: What specific actions can I take to keep myself "sober"?

Thank you for all your kind help!

what was dovs reply?

mechazek wrote on 23 Sep 2011 13:23:

I'm still waiting. I never sent an email, I just posted my question here and then sent him a PM asking him to reply to my post.

Dooov wheeere are you?

I was sleeping, why'd you wake me up? What kind of friend are you anyway? You call this.....oh....wait a minute. I was having a dream arguing with my wife there.....

OK, so instead of writing a speech about mushy stuff, I'll keep it really practical.

If you feel you are not in trouble, then why are you searching for anything at all? What are you? I only do things when I am forced to do them, for example, when I see that if I do not do something I will slip and drown, then and only then do I start doggy-paddling faster. Are you some kind of mentch, or something?

OK, so that was a big tongue-in-cheek. But seriously, I am suspicious of the entire business of being interested in "growing higher in kedusha and marital bliss", for sex and lust addicts. It so often descends into a mess of self-centered self-aggrandizement, and the payoff of kavod poisons the entire affair. It is great for normals, but if being a recovering person, I see it as something that I need to use 1st gear for. Madreigos are best left to those more qualified to handle them, just as the 12&12 describes righteous indignation.

This may be a disappointing attitude to have for some folks, because so many apparently come to GYE with great and high hopes of winning and being catapulted up to the heights of Torah and yir'as Shomayim as a result of their clean time...in fact, people have already told them that "those like you, who are attracted to this schmutz, are often deeply spiritually sensitive people and have great, great potential - and that is precisely why the YH is trying to 'get you' so badly!"

And I do not disagree with the facts of any of that stuff. It's just that they are nice selling points - but spell only trouble, in real recovery for addicts like me. Simcha shel mitzvah is the secret, as Bardy will tell you any day - and "heichereh madreigosshcaft" is not a place of simcha, for most addicts. It's lonely at the top, you know.... That's where ma'alos lead....and lo sa'aleh b'ma'alos al mizb'chi (asher, etc.,) never was better applied than to a drunk like me!

So. Back to earth. Why do you want to grow more? If what you have is working, and you are clean, why mess with it?

Are you just restless? That is not good, chabibi. Time takes time, real improvement takes patience. Keep working what you have so far and the fruits will come be"H. Just stay clean at all costs one day at a time till you die. That is good enough for me, is it good enough for you?

I mean, bishlomah, if you have thrown yourself into a program, then you have the steps to work, and that means a bit of writing, sharing and some more writing, more sharing, and more practical work, etc....till you are using those tools in your every day life and life becomes much, much easier and better.

But you are not giving yourself to any program - and that's fine!!! But then, what is the rush to do x, y, and z? You are living a full life as a frum Jew! Is there not enough real work for you to do?

On the other hand, if you feel you are stagnating and it really bothers you to no end, then work is in order. You will not like yourself and you will not like your life and you will eventually not like the people you are with,and they will eventually not like you much either, and then...you will certainly act out.

So if that is where you are, then you have work to do. Though I have no idea what to suggest, for I am not an expert, as you figured out so well, only sharing my experience.

I suggest you pick and choose what to work on from wherever you wish, try it out for a month or two with earnest, and then see what happens, reassess, and move on.

That sounds nice to me. I just do not know what else to say.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I'm letting your words sink in. Have a great shabbos! 

dov wrote on 23 Sep 2011 16:27:

Just because I have been sober, doesn't mean it has been easy.  There were times that without the fear of having to fess up to my wife, I surely would've fallen.  I know all too well that one fall leads to another and it's difficult to get back up.  I'd rather not tiptoe on the edge of that cliff.  Before I came here, I was certain, that without my wife's help, I could not stay sober.  It would just be a matter of time.  Now, B"H I am meeting some people here, talking on the phone some, and even met one person (you know who you are).  I can not do it on my own.  I need people.

dov wrote on 23 Sep 2011 16:27:

"been there, done that". Just never realized it, until I came here.

dov wrote on 23 Sep 2011 16:27:

(nodding my head).  Here's a good example of an idea, but how is it done lemaaseh?  It's not just going to happen by itself.

dov wrote on 23 Sep 2011 16:27:

I think I answered above.

dov wrote on 23 Sep 2011 16:27:

Here is where I think I can gain, but wish there was a way to do that without SA meetings.  Not because I'm afraid to face people.  It's hard, but I can do it.  I just don't think I need the whole 12 step package.  Maybe I just want something that doesn't exist.  I don't mind meeting people, writing, sharing, working etc., but again, I need a plan lemaaseh.  I can't beleive that all the 12 step tools are useless outside the context of a full blown program.

dov wrote on 23 Sep 2011 16:27:

You've said quite a bit. Thanks!

I think I need to make recovery more concrete.  Not just hearing great ideas.  How can I implement them?

Here's a try.
1) Speak on the phone to someone from GYE at least once a week.  Even if it's just a hello.  Staying connected to someone (or someones) that I can share my feelings with without fear of being judged will help a great deal.

Maybe that's where I should leave it for now.  Any other idea that I think of, smacks of what you said above...
dov wrote on 23 Sep 2011 16:27:

Great quote!

Thanks again!

gibbor120 wrote on 23 Sep 2011 18:50:


Is there such a thing? Yeah. It's called real friendship, and we humans have been using it successfully for thousands of years. It's where GYE needs to lead (for addicts), or I think it's all a joke. Yeah, there will be plenty fellows who will not need it, and the chizuk is enough. You are apparently setting yourself into the category for whom the chatting is not enough, who need more, for one reason or another. I salute you! (salute)

GYE has PM system just for this purpose. Lots of guys get to know eachother better that way, without pesky noseybodies like me posting all over their threads. They even trade phone #s, and I know more than a handful who have taken the plunge and actually met each other! You may know one or two yourself .

Yes, your plan sounds great. Agreeing to daven for each other every day is another thing that helps, and yes, written journaling and written and unwritten stepwork will help you a lot, too. SA has a text called "Stepping into Action" which is sort of a workbook on the steps. Stay away from long, mushy checklists that shrinks and the folks who are dying to be in every addictions 12 step group there is love. Keep it simple, in writing, and share it with your friend. Make it doable and regular. Oh, and none of it really gets as far unless we keep our zippers up, except when needed for health care functions. (details, details... )

Gibbor, great questions, something I spent time thinking about.
Dov, great answers!
B'derech tzachus: loi sa'ale b'ma'ailois al mizb'chi - not even 12 ma'alois?

Very funny....ma'alos, 'steps'. Being that it is selichos night and I'm way too serious right now, here are some thoughts that are way too serious:

But the ma'alois are not really the problem there - it the being sa'aleh on them that is the problem. These 12 steps have a safety mechanism: we remain recovering sex and lust addicts through them all! No aliyah at all!

Freedom? Yes! Simcha? Yes! But still sick people getting well by Hashem's Chessed through it all.

And then, at the last, last one, we share what we've been given - as fellow recovering sex addicts! The 12th is only and all about being able to share with other sickos, because we are sickos, too!

It's not the p'shat that we can share with them "because we were there, too," but because we share the illness. Our illness is in remission because we have learned to take the steps necessary to maintain our spiritual condition so that we let Him in. That's all we actually do. It ain't much, but it's enough, apparently.

Just tell me "Oh, chill, noodlehead." Make my day.

Thanks Dov, your reply was one of your best posts yet.  I guess it helps that you were replying directly to me.   Thanks again. Sorry, I just can't thank you enough.  I have learned a lot from you in a short time.