kickinit81 wrote on 06 Jun 2011 15:41:

Is that one of the ideas you're throwing out, or is it working?  What happens when you relax, and that desire abates?  When the object of a desire (so shoot me for stretching the translation) goes away, so does the desire.  If the object is self-aggrandizement, what happens when you fall into depression?  If the object is proving theoretical control, what happens when you prove that control?

I think you can probably stay "clean" for a while - certainly for as long as you battle.  What caused the previous regression/s?  Did you stop battling for any reason, or did you lose a fight?


In terms of the addiction.  Other than reading.  I could read all about Catholicism without becoming a Catholic.

kickinit81 wrote on 06 Jun 2011 15:41:


100%. You can live off of desperation as much as you can live off of adrenaline. It's a temporary, but if you miss it, you could be in a world of trouble. Not saying you should strive to be desperate, just not to miss the point where desperation needs to be acted upon.

TheJester wrote on 06 Jun 2011 15:57:


I lost the fight generally or I attempted to convince myself that it is actually muttar.  Or even if it is something that shouldn't be done, it isn't so bad.  The desire to self improve is a constant in my life, the issue often become which area to work on. Rationalizations are common for me, especially in areas where I am very much a nogeh bidavar.

I am not sure what you mean by "If the object is proving theoretical control, what happens when you prove that control?"  Did you mean disprove?  It isn't exerting theoretical control. So far I have been through some of my worst desires to masturbate in the past few days and have been successful in ignoring them.  I think the porn issue is just feeling weird about masturbating without any reason or lust desire.  For a while, about a year ago, I had an idea in my head that since histaklus was closer to a deoraisa, maybe I would just masturbate and just not watch sexual material.  This didn't work out so well, but worked for a little bit, it resolved my sexual frustration but didn't have me watching things that I didn't want to be.  I ended up not liking that solution so much so after a few weeks I fell back into a bad pattern, but I wasn't at a point of wanting to exert strength to stop it.

So today at moments when I really wanted to break my resolve, I was coming up with beautiful chiddushei torairah about why not only was it muttar but obligitory, quite a distortion, but I was still able to keep my desire for self improvement with me.  I wonder whether I would be able to in depression? I don't know.  One of the reasons that I decided not to worry about the issur aspect of it was that for me I was finding that I would get upset about it which would inevitably lead to worse things.  Keeping my desire to not do it in front of me has been somewhat successful.  Actually, for today it is saying that I want to make it to a full 7 days.  I don't know if that is a good approach, because after 90 I may feel that I did my 90 and now I am good, I don't have any more goals, but small steps I am guessing are better :-)




Currently, I have a filter, which isn't so helpful except as a reminder since I have the password.  I really can't not have it since I work in research, and a lot of sites that I need get blocked by my filter.... I am installing an accountability software and deciding who to send it to etc.  I am going to be leaving my computer outside of my bedroom since many of my struggles are at night and in the morning, so I am going to only be using it outside of my room. I have tried that one before but have not been able to maintain that one, since that is where my desk for work is.

You think too much  8)

TheJester wrote on 06 Jun 2011 16:42:

LOL! You are not the first person who has told me that.  Which is why I think that I am having such difficulty with this battle.  Sometimes I just want to escape for thinking and feeling, so I "act out" (to use the language of the forum, which I either don't understand or don't like [the language of acting out, not the forum).

kickinit81 wrote on 06 Jun 2011 16:45:


Post on here.  Excellent idea.  Especially when you read back through it.

[quote]"act out" (to use the language of the forum, which I either don't understand or don't like [the language of acting out, not the forum).
[/quote]

I agree.  The linguistic purist in me finds it uncomfortable, for no specific reason.

"acting out" is simply making a thought an activity. Generally, our issues start with a thought, and end up in an action. It's the struggle of keeping the thoughts thoughts, and not actions, that many of us struggle with.

not having the thoughts in the first is a level most of us can only dream of. I wouldn't call having thoughts "acting out"

musicman wrote on 06 Jun 2011 17:02:


I hereby thoroughly retract my issues with the term.  I had understood it very differently. 

I just got hit by a weird but all to familiar to me y'h.  He suggested that now that I started to recognize the issue and had a few days of success, that I can stop posting and that I am good.  It is not true, Mr. YH! I do need to post and the accountability/advice of others who are going through similar issues.  I shouldn't be riding on my 6 days of being sober! That may be impressive to me but I have a long way to go.  I want to make it to 7, thats it. Once I make it to 7 I will evaluate.  I am proud of myself that I made it this long, and in actuality it has already improved my desire for my future wife.  One of the things that I am trying to avoid is what a lot of people complain about.    Marriage is not a problem solver, and I know that.  I never expected it to be.  That wasn't even part of my thought processes at all actually.  However, it is still a good motivator.  I am still struggling to figure out whether to tell her about my struggles/how much to.  I made 2 off hand allusions but not with any realness or clearness.  Ok, that is just a jumble of thoughts. Anyway, I am here to stay for a while so that I can work on different attitudes towards my issues.

If you tell her, you risk everything.

You're not married yet, and you're taking a huge risk.

On one hand, you can tell her, she can accept, and you can live the rest of your life with none of that secret.

On the other (more likely) hand, she will be disgusted, and all the good qualities she's seen in you in previous dates will be overshadowed by this huge revelation.

I would not want to be in your situation, but so much is at stake, and so much is unknown (how she really will react).

Also, you've only been sober for a week (not even). To her, all she hears is "I haven't cheated on you in a whole week." It's not a wonderful in that context (and it is wonderful). Don't let your affection cloud your judgement on this one. She is human, and unless she has the same problem (wouldn't that be bashert?), she will not understand, and you will lose some important trust.

You're on thin ice. Be very careful (and maybe confide in a rav that you trust with these matters, and knows the girl as well).

musicman wrote on 06 Jun 2011 20:12:


Ok, what about discussing having an accountability program with someone that we trust and having an excellent filter with her at the wheel?  I don't have to discuss all of the issues but I can establish that I don't want us to have access to non-healthy materials in our home?

That's a whole different ballgame.

Setting standards like that before marriage is a wonderful thing, and I only wish more people could do it.

So, the way i see this conversation going, you would say something along the lines of:

"I'm aware that the Internet is a frighfully dangerous place, for childr4en and adults alike, and I'd like our future Bayis Neeman to be free of the dangers that come with Internet Access. Here's some good resources to help with that problem, i was wondering what you thought about it."

Sounds like a great idea. And when she asks why you're so insistent about the idea, you can say that you've had nisyonos in the past, and you've found these methods effective in battling that particular YH.

This sounds a lot more viable than "O btw, I have a lust addiction, but I've been clean for a week, and you're the only one I really care about."

musicman wrote on 06 Jun 2011 21:34:


Yeah, I can't see the way you envisioned it with coming out straight and saying it like that working.  I had been thinking somewhere in between those 2, but probably it would be better more along the lines of what you were saying about the filter. 

In my own situation, at least, I know that my wife would take something like that absolutely horribly. based on previous conversations on the matter, I know that she sees such behaviors evil, base, and deplorable (as do I, but that's not the point, is it?) I know that telling her something like that would cause possibly irreparable damage to our relationship, so I generally stay away from the subject entirely. Maybe when I'm more than 3 weeks down the road to recovery I'll be a little more confident. Right now, I'm focusing on my own recovery and not my spouse's knowledge of it. First things, first.

OK - here is the wisdom of a fool.  It is what I applied, in a different scenario.  In my situation, there was a clear and present danger of her finding out "things".

I went down the "full disclosure" route before marriage.  Because I (a) wanted a marriage without secrets, and (b) wanted no "nasty surprises" in the marriage.  You cannot fathom (or perhaps you can) how sick I am of hiding and lies.  If I can't completely let go (within reason) in front of my wife, then what is the marriage?

But then, I had different problems, and perhaps my response to them does not apply to you.  I must also guiltily admit that I chose the time and words carefully.  This is something in which I was confident, and although I took a risk, it was small and calculated.

Why then do I mention it?  Because there is a difference between "history" and "current affairs".  History can be "some stuff I did, please respect my privacy" or whatever a Rav says.  If it's current affairs...  I think differently.  Many people would disagree, and with good reason.

Caveat: I would most certainly tread with infinitely more caution once a marriage is in place.

For those who have the question, don't worry, it does make sense.  Others, please ignore this last line.