You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but we have been there before on the forum. They have nothing whatsoever to do with addiction. Any alcoholic knows that well. Some exact thing here for those who are sexaholics. That our drug happens to be a sin is of no relevance and only causes confusion that complicates many peoples' recovery.

Neither of the Chazalim you referred to are halachos. They are Torah thoughts.

Even more shimush is needed to learn how and when to apply them correctly than is needed in applying Halocha correctly.

Now, if you do not see the practical difference between an addict and a non-addict, then you are painting all sinning people who have an eiver and a yetzer hora, with the same brush! Before deciding if that's accurate, please consider studying the difference between an alcoholic and a regular social problem-drinker (or farbrengener ). Many recovering alcoholics would be glad to try and help anyone understand that, if they are asked about respectfully and in person.

Besides all that, as so many yiddisheh addicts of many kinds have discovered, once a person's mishega'as crosses over the line into addiction, there is absolutely no difference between the recovery needs of a Jew and the recovery needs of a goy. Even the goals are the same. Recovery is for sanity, not Torah. Torah, we know, starts there and is based on sanity. And I know a few hundred good, frum sexaholic men (and some women) in recovery including some roshei kolel and many respected magidei shiur and b'nei Torah. Many have been stuck to phone sex, chronic porn use, and masturbation, and quite a few to prostitutes and strip clubs, as well. And there is also no significant difference between any of those! For it's all the exact same drug. Their problem is exactly the same problem and their solution is the exact same solution. So some have goyim as sponsors, some have yidden as sponsors...no significant difference.

I only write here based on my experience. Like I wrote, your opinion is respected! But first let's please make absolutely certain that we are each talking about the same subject, at least. Discussing it further would probably be better on the phone than on GYE, though, which is 100% fine with me if you'd like. Two real people talking with their own voices gets matters much more clear, faster. And I have no fear that you are any danger to me. If you are comfortable with that as well, just let me know by PM or email (wequithiding@gmail.com). I am sure you have thought about this stuff a lot and have a lot to say about it.

- Dov (that's my name)

yiraishamaim wrote:


Wow! That is really fantastic. Thanks for letting us know. Please continue to share whatever is helping you with all us folks here. Have a good day.

Dov, I understand what you saying.(I think I do) Although there is a lot of truth and wisdom in your words and they are borne out in real life experience I'm not sure you're completely right. I'm also not sure you aren't. I'm considering another possibility. I wish I could clarify whether or not it has any merit. I can see from your responses to me that I haven't yet successfully presented my thoughts clearly to be understood. I don't know about speaking with a real voice. I'm not quite comfortable with that. You'r right that it's the more practical way of communicating but there is also an advantage of writing(This is wishful thinking because I'm not willing to go in person, but it still might be somewhat true) I don't know whether you feel that there is any value for you in having this discussion because maybe you have no doubt at all of the truth of your position and the lack of validity of mine so you are sure that all you need to do is show me that I'm wrong. If that's the case then in a way it's a waste of time for you so I don't expect you to expend the time needed to have this discourse particularly in writing. If you do feel that this conversation has some value to you then should we take this to private messaging between us?

No problem. I gave you my email, just use it whenever you like. If you decide you have nothing to fear after a while, I will give you my cell# and you can call. Some guys end up calling from an unlisted secret number...it's all out of shame. But that does not bother me at all. It's just a loss because the realer it is, the realer the discussion is likely to be - the more masachim mavdilim there are because of shame, the more likely it is that the discussion will not be real either.

I have had the experience many times of pouring out my heart on line here with guys asking deep and important questions about lust in marriage and issues that might arise after a few months or years of sobriety - only to discover later that the guy I am communicating with is a 16 year old philosopher who has just quit masturbating (um...that very morning)! Obviously the guy was sincere, but it was not what he needed at all, and was really all about him pretending to himself (and me, for some strange reason) that his issue was 'recovery', when in reality his issue was just plain sobriety. He really just needed to admit he could not keep his hands off his penis lemoshol, then once he was clean for a few weeks, start dealing with philosophy or whatever. Till he is willing to DO something real, talk and thought are very, very cheap for all of us.