Posting moved to new more appropriate forum. Wishing you much hatzlacha and beracha on life in recovery.

WOW!
you are truly an inspiration! it's nice having you on board.
some people might not like what you say http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4162.msg112644#msg112644 but it's truly an inspiration to others

Thank you for your perspective.  I think I am not alone in asking... MORE DETAILS PLEEEEASE!

Thank you for your post! 

zev_17_years wrote on 28 Aug 2011 22:41:


Great story. Thanks for sharing... We'd love to hear more (one day).

I think you are misunderstanding how the word "powerlessness" is used on this site and in the 12-Steps. It obviously doesn't mean powerless in the way you think. If it did, what help would that be for anyone? Do you think the 12-Step groups are trying to get people to fall by being "self-fulfilling prophecies"? If so, they wouldn't have any success, would they?

So first we need to admit that there is obviously a misunderstanding of how this word is being used.

All they mean by "powerless" is two things, which I believe you will also agree with. Powerless means:
1) because we have ingrained our brains with these desires (and self-medicating) for so many years, the pathways are there - and may be there for life. We can close the door on these pathways, but the moment we start opening the door again (taking the first drink), we may find ourselves back at square one. So powerlessness doesn't mean we can't change, it just means we are powerless over lust. If we start lusting, we will awaken all the old desires and likely feel out-of-control.
2) And Powerless means like you said, that without Hashem we can't do it.

Thank you for that clarification, guard.

amazingly inspirational! I would definitely love to hear much more about every aspect of your recovery and what "happened" to you 21 years ago that caused you to want to change.

In my humble opinion, I think that the concept of "knowing you are powerless" (KYAP) works hand in hand with what you are saying.
kyap doesn't mean that you cannot fight and win everytime. What I got out of the handbooks, is that on the one hand, we have Bechira in the present moment, but nevertheless the power to choose comes only from Hashem. So on the one hand, we're completely powerful but on the other, we are powerless. You can look at it both ways and both of them are true. We have no inherent power but Hashem gives us his power to fight and win. Therefore the appropriate thing to do is to ask Hashem for that power and to thank him for it. But also to remember, that Hashem will always be helping us succeed because he wants us to not do bad.
It sounds to me like you understood very clearly that Hashem gave you that infinite ability and that's what helped you so much.

zev_17_years wrote on 29 Aug 2011 23:46:


Zev, this is truly amazing. It is amazing that you claim you have reached a point where you don't ever begin to lust, and "where there won’t be the possibility of lusting". That is truly an incredible claim. Even the greatest Tana'im were shown that they have "the possibility of lusting" when they thought that they no longer had... But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean under normal circumstances  ... Anyway, we would all be grateful if you would share with us more about your 4 step process and how to get there. But as you yourself wrote "it can take a good number of years going through a very, very painful, process of extreme self-honesty and understanding". Wow, that doesn't sound easy. Especially to do that on your own without group support. Also, you claim it took a "Huge Crisis" to turn your life around. So based on these 4 points (1) that it can take a number of years (2) it takes going through a very, very painful, process (3) there's no group support (4) in your case it took having been shaken up by a "Huge Crisis" - if it takes all that, I wonder how many people here on GYE will be able to follow your approach. Still, we'd be happy to hear what you've learned, and how you think that we can get there.

Please point us the way, by all means.

Yasher Koach

By the way Zev, I suggest you change the name of this thread to "I am powerless" AND "I can do it when I know that I need Hashem's help" since they are one and the same thing, and there is no disagreement here.

I am getting a sneaking suspicion that Zev is really Tomim (or YMG). And even if he isn't, it is probably a close friend of Tomim's that he invited to post on the forum. If so, we welcome Zev with open arms. [If Zev is not Tomim and he honestly wants to share what worked for him to help others, we ask him to please call us on our hotline at 646-600-8100.]

I have no problem when people share what works for them, but Tomim (YMG) seems to have a clear agenda today of delegitimize the 12-Steps as "treif" and anti-Torah. He feels it is his "achrayus" to save people from (in his words) trading "one evil for another" and he keeps finding new and creative ways to wage his "Holy War".

However, since the 12-Steps help - and have helped - thousands of Yidden (and millions of people throughout the world), and since we have the backing of the Gedolim on this issue (even the biggest Kana'im like Rav Avraham Schorr and the Sqverrer Rebbe, not to mention Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky and many other Gedolim, send people to 12-Step groups when nothing else has worked), we will not tolerate 12-step deligitamization on this forum.

Indeed the concept of "powerless" is not for everyone. No one can tell you that you are "powerless". (See Dov's reply over here). It is something that only a person himself may feel, after honestly looking at his track record and seeing how many things he has tried over time, to no avail. And indeed, GYE suggests many different approaches before suggesting that someone try the 12-step approach. We have a document called "GYE in a Nutshell" that outlines 8 different levels of this struggle/addiction, and only in Level 5-6 do we suggest the 12-Step approach.

If Zev is not Tomim, we invite him to please share what worked for him, but to please refrain from comments like "I shudder to think where I would be today had I been told 21 years ago that I am powerless" (sounds suspiciously like Tomim) even though it is clear that this is out of context and making it sound as if the 12-Steps have an agenda to make people fall and give up hope.

Thank you

censored -What's your point (or do you have one at all)?

gotta love that rage  ;D

Nice to hear from you... Maybe stick around for a while until you get fed up with GYE again 

Zev, I apologize for thinking you were someone else in disguise. Please continue to share with us, your story is truly an inspiration.

Hey Censored! welcome back, nice to see you.

Wow, it's also nice to see Guard getting worked up now and then it's been a while.

But c'mon Guard really deep down you know tat the 12 steps is anti-Torah and only a x-ian missionary tactic to convert us Jews.  A REAL Jew knows that learning Mesilas Yesharim, Tanya and and saying Tehillim is the ONLY way to overcome the Yetzar Hara! And if it's not working for you, you just arent trying hard enough, you sinner!

Hey censored/David-Rage/RATM!

Great to see you (even in disguise).

DavidRageCensored,
so nice to see you!
has the Great Architect orchestrated your return to the threads of light shining at GYE?
verily i say unto you, that this day is a consecration of delight and joy unto the minions...
and ye shall answer Amen