We just got back from a Shabbos in Monsey. Very nice. Complications, real life. Nu, all good boruch Hashem.

So after you did your first step (a good one, too), and you answered the questions I asked above with a yes, it is time to see what you trust in.

That is (more afra l'pumei didon), what are the things you and I really give our trust and hope in, by second nature as addicts? It certainly is Hashem for some things...a few. But we run after many things (that are definitely not 'Hashem'!) with great hopes and expectations. Some of our "higher powers" are horribly stupid choices - like women with davka a certain body type - regardless of whether they are disgusting selfish pigs, goyim, hateful and evil people - or good ones, loving, and kind people, or yidden - or our wives. The real beauty of a human being (goodness) is totally irrelevant then, isn't it. It's all about the breasts, the face, the nose, the  smile...whatever it is. We give our power to these things because we depend on finding them so, so very much.

That is "giving our power to others". Correct?

Now, incidentally, the kavonoh in the Sheim is "ba'al kol hakochos kulam." Something is really messed up with us. Nu. Fixing it all up is not what the first steps are about. It's just starting. We have work to do. namshich hal'ah!!

Sometimes it is in other people in general that we put our tocheless vetikvah - we run after their respect and kavod, like it will save us and we are dying for it....if they hold from us - so? They don't hold from us - so? But it motivates some of us like crazy. Also a mach'lah.

OK. So we write a list of people and things that grab our power because we are makriv it to them. Anyone or anything we run after, to give us what we lack inside ourselves.

This is not deep philosophy here - just the facts. It might take a few minutes and a few seconds here and there as we see and remember a few times over two days or so, to get the main ones. That's it - it's done.

Let me know, chaver.


 

hey dov welcome back, dont do it again... (not to be here for so long)  >

ill first repeat u in my low claas english to make sure i understand u correctly (short)

i am dependent on breasts etc of women.
and also to ppl that are in my suroundings tryeeng to be מוצא חן by them.....

i should write down all the ppl that have on me a influence and i do because of them things i dont want to or not interested.

Its true sometimes my only thing is a woman, and sometimes I feel like it’s the only thing who is gonna calm me down….. sometimes… when the lust attacks.

The other thing u mentioned about been interested to be מוצא חן by ppl, well ist very normal and very helathy. We all live in a society and we all have to behave by theyr rules. I go with a white shirt because it’s the society I belong to etc, and we pray each day ותננו היום לחן וכו בעיני כל רואינו   
And believe me i am not a sisey and i do a lot of things that in my society are not welcomed, but still there is a line i cant cross, and thats because im healthy not sick, i am interested to belong to my croud, so there is rules i got to comply

laagvokeles wrote on 11 Jul 2011 19:32:


I have a rebbi who says that the fact that we learn Torah and lead a frum lifestyle because we live in a society that views these things as stylish is certainly better than if we were to strive to live our lives according to what the the goyim value.  However, that doesn't make it right or "healthy," even if its normal in the society that we live in.  This is what the whole Shaar Yichud HaMaseh is about.  No matter how white your shirt is or how black your hat is that's not what is going to be get you a front row seat, or even a ticket into, Olam Haba.

Ultimately, you make the point that I believe Dov is trying to bring out.  You are not willing to walk around in a blue shirt because the company you keep will look down at you (even though there is no issur involved) yet you are willing to watch porn even though God tells you that you can't do so.  What that means is that you are giving more power to the company you keep than you are to God.  No doubt you do hold some belief in God, its just you have others gods too.  (This is why the Mitzvah of Shema is so important, we are commanded to be meyached Hashem to constantly remind us that there is only one power in this world).

lets not mix things up.
a dieb (גנב) even he is a גנב he is still gonna behave by the rules of hes friends גנבים

i love woman, and i still gotta be a מענטש whats the problem? because im bad in one thing i have to be bad in others also...?

every normal person cares till a certain point about "whats society gonna say" even you URAJ.

its only a problem when its to much per example if i dont have money to go for holidays and even so i borow money because im pressured by society, thats bad.

i am very normal. i am only משועבד to society as a regular human been should be.

Fine, but you are still meshubad to the breasts of women. And probably to other parts you are (inside, baleiv) running after. When the opportunity is to use the image of them - even just an image - you do it with relish. It is very precious to you, so we all hide it in order to protect it so we can keep using it...and we are all the same in that, here. There are body parts or certain people or certain 'looks' that trigger us.

'Triggered' means that it does something to us, and for us. We react to it. That means it has power over us.

Where does it get the power? Sure, in the leiv, we see a truly beautiful woman in those films and we know what we feel: "Woooo....she is powerful. I need her. Even just in fantasy I'll take what she has to offer, cuz it - she - is soo powerful." Our eyes open just a bit wider - we want to get every bit in of course....what is going on here?

So where did a dumb shiksa get such awesome power? A: we gave it to her. it was out power. Now we are lehutim achar ha'arayos like it is life itself (while we are planning and using it). Like we need it to death. Isn't that how it feels sometimes?

Hashem knows. He knows it. And He is here waiting. We feel certain - ma'aminim be'emunah sheleimah - that we need, must have, the best porn image, just the right one....like we'll die without it sometimes.

aza kamovess ahavoh...koshe k'sh'eol kin'ah....gevalt. It's the mayim rabim, no? It's trying to be mechabeh the real ahavah - the one we really need (to Hashem). And we sit there in front of the DVD and we really can't accept - we have no emunah - that Hashem has better than what this shiksa's breasts can give me. Our hearts innocently say what the disgusting Roman ym"s said to R' Akivah: "Does your G-d have such delicacies for you?!"

We honestly can't imagine He does - so how can you blame us? Nu. So here we are again, masturbating our brains out to a power that we make greater than ourselves. The image of some skin!

This awesome power was our power - SA term for this is, "Giving away our power to others", for them to "make us whole." 

I am not giving you a speech, not criticizing you or us, at all. Just saying it the way it is, as it seems to me. Lo habayshon lomeid - the truth must be spelled out and faced. 

No need to be afraid of the truth. We have a Big, Big G-d. He can handle it all, no contest.

Anything seem like you, in all this megillah, La'ag?

 

Dov, you really something! You are a working man, but I feel through the lines that you are deep deep into hashem, you are really special. I know many ppl that didn’t do your aveiros ever ever, and they are next to you like atheist, even they do mitzvoth with cheishek , but still you got something there very impressive, bifrat that you are a working man (hashem should give you millions of dollars amen, and in my opinion I tend to believe that your been close to hashem is what is saving you. Your believeing fully in אלמלא ד' עוזרו אינו יכול לו , your understanding 100 % that you cant take down your guard, because you have a monster inside you that wants to come out, and u make sure he stays there, im 99% sure that all your hot blod you have you use it with your wife or u daven and do mitzvoth with a lot of התלהבות and probably both are true.
In other words its my believe that u go to this meetings(?) Or that u are here in gye only to make sure you don’t put down your guard, I also think that this 12 steps helped you get close to hashem, it helped you transfer your ahavah a bad one for a good one
All this I allowe my self to tell you before I even know what 12 steps is, and because its in my stomach….  But its not what I want to talk about with you. Any  way dov you are a “clean miracle” im so impressed by you!)
לענינינו
I know hashem is better, and i even felt it many times, my problem is to stick to one “lust” (hashem)… even its after yom kipur and I loved been the all day in shul stil after yom kipur I say ”oh lets see whats the latest movie…” even hashem can also give me tons of joy and even much more.
The kozker rabbi said: TO BE A RABBI IS A TAAVAH AS ALL THE OTHER TAAVAH?S, BUT TO BE ONE (A RABBI) YOU MUST GIVE UP ALL THE OTHER TAAVA?S”
You understand me dov? I like chocolat… a lot, but sometimes I wanna have stake! So how do I get attached completely only to hashem?

It's OK to have steak once in a while, as long as it does not become an obsession - a tachlis for other stuff. It's just a nice thing, that's all. A brocha. Not a tachlis.

But...

I am a sex and lust addict. I am. So for me, sex and lust easily become a raison d'etre - a tachlis. It pushes other things (like being a real husband and father) aside. We play an act - we act like tatty, husband, etc...like playing house. Really devoting ourselves to what our family needs and is best for them - that is just too big a deal, maybe feels like a silly waste of time. It feels like "that's going too far!"

So...

After a few months sober, years back, my wife and I agreed to actually stop sex altogether for a couple of months, as my sponsor suggested. I was not acting out, but sex in general was just too big a deal for me. I was not able to grasp the program if not for some freedom from the obsession, and abstinence helped with that then.

And surprise: about four months ago, (about 14 years after the first abstinence exercise) my wife and I decided to do it again, again with my sponsor agreeing. He had never ever suggested it before since the first short time of it in the beginning of my program. But my wife and I knew it was time to move up, and that we both needed me to be more free - even she needed to be more free of the big issue. Our marriage had grown to the point that it would not tolerate unhealthiness. So it was time for more health.

And it has been over four months that we have been abstinent and the agreement we wrote out is nearing its end. Hashem will help us move on from here. She has been going to the mikvah just as usual - and we are closer than ever. With no sex and no lust touching for either of us. So it is funny that you assume that i have been successful in recovery at putting my lust for other women into my wife. It is not so. That does not work at all....for an addict. It may work perfectly for a non-addict, but not for an addict. Sex is just too big a deal.

Recovery is a neis. It is about letting go of my lust slowly, slowly, and putting my focus on these steps instead of on what I am getting from others and from Hashem. But that is impossible if I am still acting out. The lust is the power behind the acting out, and so is the habit.

For the habit, that's easy. Anyone who wants to can kick the habit. But the lust - well, that is part of us, is how our brain works, and has infiltrated even our religion and the way we look at people and other things. The lust is also not only sexual - it is the adoration and focus on us that is attached to the sex act which we are addicted to, as well. That is ultimately just approval-seeking. It is sick and is part of escaping from real life. Escaping from ourselves and our reality.

I gotta go.

It'll be good. Take it easy, chaver.

 

Dov your'e amazing. But, i can't figue you out. Your derech is very high for people like me. i hardly understand your points mostly, but, those that i understand helps me a lot.

I can't figure out, why you are doing this, I'm even more impressed how you can keep your self clean without even a wet dream. You got to be a Kudesh.

It makes no sense to me. But, who am i aginst a Kudesh like you.

I understsnd that we should not put the lust in our wife's, we should just get rid of it. But, we can do this without being seperated for 4-5 months.


Its sounds funny to me. But, i guess Hoshem is still on your side, because he's keeping you clean even when you chose this approach and he's still keeping you clean. because without him, none of us can do it.

dov  i have millions of questions but i think i am not supoused to talk about them now, cause its gonna take me away from what i need, wich is: whats next for me.

so whats next for me dov?

laagvokeles wrote on 14 Jul 2011 23:29:


Very impressive, Laag.

--Eye.

Oy vei. It's time to take the 3rd step.

Later, it's too close to SH"K already. Sorry.

Hope you are having agreat SH"K!!

but dov i am not sure i did the second step....
cause the first one was that i cant do it my self
the 2 was (i think) to understand that i am dependent of woman. wich is true even its not so true... what i mean is: even not always they have a power over me cause sometimes i am with my play station so i forget about woman, but in general, yes, they have a big control over me.

am i ok? 

Excuse me, but once you get the obsession with women out of your life, your problem is not over.

At all.

The reason we are dragged after these toy people with breasts is because we have some cracked ideas about some things (magiyah li!), some pain (poor me), some confusion (what is a wife for? Sex and a big smile, no?), some bad history (pekelach), resentments with G-d ("it's not fair") and with people around us (most are idiots - or tzaddikim!), so we have given up on the really good life, blah, blah.....it's all garbage. And our only sensible answer to it all is porn - and good porn, not just any porn, you know. But the junk is there. And it has to go, one bit at a time or in big chunks - but it will eventually have to go. We may never finish, but we will get some more sanity and be able to have the good life. That is what every tatty wants for his kinderlach - Hashem is no different. We are supposed to have the real good life. But as addicts, we cannot.

If our entire problem was just and only that "it makes us feel good to watch the breasts and we want to do it again!", then the powerlessness I am talking about would not really be there. We have all stopped - for a while. Then, apparently, we have to start porn and masturbation again. We just do - I call that guarantee, "we have to". It's for sure.

And some of the the frummies say "it was "a slip" - nothing is fundamentally wrong with you - you just were not vigilant enough, and 'gave in to the desire' because - after all, you have a penis (or a YH, call it what you want, it doesn't matter). Nu. try harder next time and you'll be OK. You've got what it takes! Be strong! Etc."

As though if we only stopped porning, everything would be OK. If the porning was removed, all would be perfect again! They completely ignore the fact that there was a reason they could become so screwed up. It didn't just happen because of an event like seeing porn once, or discovering masturbation feels nice. Sorry, only a very, very small percentage of those who find those things becomes an addict. Something independent of the porn is broken with us, or we would not have ended up like this in the first place. Remember the 1st step and your story - you and I are not just normal men with normal use of lust - we have made a big deal out of it for a long, long time, and developed in it. We are a mess.

OMG. Nothing could be more twisted and ridiculous, if you are an addict, than believing that if we only got rid of all the porn everything would automatically be "right again".

The Frummies explain quite handily that "it is a YH. The devil is making you do it, and the devil always made you do it. It all just grew and developed naturally because that's what everyone's YH does. So you gotta fight (and fall), and fight (and fall), and....etc. Hey, it may nor be working, but at least you are doing a great mitzvah! Be happy with yourself!" (And all along my wife is being tricked and lied to and the community thinks I am a wonderful ben Torah and there we are again on our knees in the bathroom masturbating to the power of a Sweet Readhead goddess again (of course).

Then the people for whom Chizzuk is everything desperately say: "Shhh! Yeah, honesty is a big mitzva, but we are busy fighting my YH right now! That's big stuff, you should be proud of yourself! And as we all know, the halocha is that ha'oseik b'mitzvah (beating the YH), potur min hamitzvah (being honest rather than a fake and a living 'lie machine' to eishes cheiki ubeisi)! Hashem wants me to keep up the show..... until I win, of course!"

Oy, vei. All this may be fine for normals, but is not a derech for addicts.


So. Enough with the women for now. That was the first part of your 2nd step. You see it already enough I think.

Now it is probably time for the rest of step 2:

Do you really believe that there is a G-d Who is Big enough to fix you - yes, just you - up right? At least to restore you to some more sanity than you have now, so your life could work better (without this drug at all)?

Do you think He could do this for you? That He would? Or do you fear that He would never do it for you?

What you are supposed to believe is not relevant here, at all. The Torah does not matter here. The Torah is not watching porn. The only question that must be answered here is "What do you have?" Nothing outside you will save you. What is in you - really in you - will.

And if you are lacking real faith, that's OK. It can change! We can come "to believe that a Power greater than ourselves can restore us to sanity". Many have. We can talk about it and grow together in that way, don't worry.

So what do you think?

Space is provided below for your notes:

hey dov,sup 

i believe he can do it, but i am not so sure hes gonna do it for me.
is that bad? i am really not sure hes gonna do it... even i know he can

dov!!!!!!!!!!!
hello???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
should i understand that all this time you dont answer me, its because its a pause and i am allowed to fornicate???????????????

ill explain a bit more what  answered you:
if i am sick, than could be hashem is gonna decide "stay sick". (like many ppl that died even they davened)
if i am a baal aveira than for sure hes gonna accept my teshuva, my will to be good, and hes gonna help me

dov i only scream at ppl in real life, in the forum i dont, but i am goona do a exeption now:
[size=undefinedpt][size=36pt][color=red]dov! u gonna make me wait again [color=black] i will kill you. (period.)