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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 18:36 #109775

  • TheJester
Laag,

If you don't want to "stop completely", and you think that you will be happy "cutting down to once every 2 weeks", why don't you actually do that, and see if you are happy?

The 12-step program is not "a tool for goyim to stop them masturbating".  The 12 steps are designed to help anyone stop doing something that they want (or feel they need) to stop.

If you honestly want to watch pornography and masturbate 4 days per month, then no 12-step program is going to help you give up completely.  Then again, I am not sure that it is what you really want.  When it comes to this, you are in the driver's seat.  Others might instruct you, but unless you put the key into the ignition, turn it, and press down on the gas...  You'll go nowhere.

So stop asking others what you want (because you won't listen to them), and start figuring that out yourself.  After that, ask advice if you are truly willing to listen.  I like you very much (as you know), and I would like to see you happy.
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 19:38 #109785

  • laagvokeles
i dont want to masturbate at all, but that is cause of jewish reasons, not because of materialistical reasons.
right now i just know that watching porn and masturbatind on a daily basis is not healthy for a goi who wants to be able to have a desire for his wife, wich the outcome of not having a desire for my wife is, i get less supers, less tee, less clothing been washed.

all the above i dont loose I THINK by masturbating ones a weeck or so... BUT HOW CAN I KNOW? dov knows if i am right or not, and he is gonna answer me soon.

i cant figure it out my self because its not my area, i dont know how this 12 steps addiction work etc.
besides i am way to involved to be able to decide my self "oh yes you can masturbate no problem...."

i wonder why all the goim that do 12 steps and stuff, dont just decide to look at it as a diet, so they can still do it once a while. Why do they have to be so extreme?
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 19:46 #109786

  • ur-a-jew
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laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 19:38:
i wonder why all the goim that do 12 steps and stuff, dont just decide to look at it as a diet, so they can still do it once a while. Why do they have to be so extreme?


Because most honest goyim, realize that their masturbation is not the real problem, its a symptom of the real problem.  They realize that they are using masturbation and porn as an escape from life.  But what they find is that it doesn't really solve the problem it's just like a band-aid.  If they can fix the problem they would prefer that.  Is this anything you can relate too? 
Help free Sholom Rubashkin by giving him the zechus of Shemiras Eiynayim.  www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2809.0
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 19:55 #109787

  • laagvokeles
true i only do it, cause i feel like "uufff lets just take of the pressure", and usually i always brake when i am tense and bored.
so ok, ill not "run away" so much from my  life, ill swalow it as a man, but come on once a while let me freak out
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 19:58 #109789

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laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 19:55:
but come on once a while let me freak out


Did you stop 4 hours ago when I wrote the two weeks started from then?
Help free Sholom Rubashkin by giving him the zechus of Shemiras Eiynayim.  www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2809.0
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 20:04 #109791

  • laagvokeles
why should i, i keep רבינו תם לחומרא
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 20:10 #109794

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laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 20:04:
why should i, i keep רבינו תם לחומרא


Goyboy, whose רבינו תם?  And you're right, you don't have to.  You've made the point already.  You can't stop when you want to which is why your once in a while eitza won't work.

Help free Sholom Rubashkin by giving him the zechus of Shemiras Eiynayim.  www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2809.0
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 20:15 #109796

  • laagvokeles
nu nu
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 21:35 #109815

  • Dov
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Dear Laag,

I PM'd this to you. But I like it too much to leave it off the forum. I hope that is OK with you. As far as the eitzoh of masturbating once in a while, I will ignore such things and focus on the stepwork with you, if you want to. Living in the problem is useless. We will live in the solution - in the work. Little issues about whether you freak out once in a while or not will all be roadkill soon, iy"H, I believe. It all depends on what you want, chaver. Not on anything else.

You wrote a few things and I elaborate on them below (sorry it is such a 'langeh arichus'):

1) When you say that you feel that you just "want to do what you want to do with no pressure" that's OK. It just means to me you still have a lot of growing up to do. This is the usual story, especially with addicts. I bet that something big happened when you were around 8 or maybe 11 years old that just stopped you growing up any more, from then on. Lots of people are like that, especially men. Who knows? Maybe I am wrong about this. But in any case, wasting time to figure out if it is true and what hapenned with you is not what recovery is about. It's just a thought I have. I am not a shrink and cannot even play one in the movies.

2) I cannot be your god, for I cannot even keep myself sober - how could I keep you sober? Hashem keeps me sober because I let Him. The 12 steps is exactly and only about how to let Him do that.

And yes, I am just an addict - a very sick man who is getting better and better, b'ezras Hashem. My family and I have a different kind of life now one day at a time - on the inside and on the outside - than we lived 15 years ago. An honest life, a great life, and we are just trying to be normal frummeh yidden, period. That is what the program is for - helping addicts be able to live the life they think is important instead of killing themselves slowly with their chosen drug.

I got better because I went to meetings. I keep getting better because I go to meetings and work this program. I would be happy to share all the details of my story with you any time you like, if that will help you. I do it all the time with new people. Just ask me.

I also cannot be your god because of the simple fact that you do not need me. The thing you need is your own honesty, for starters. You can learn from my self-honesty how to be honest with yourself, but you cannot use my honesty for anything. You need to find your own. Without it, you have nothing. And without continuing to find and use your honesty, the fixing does not continue. You need to be open withe the right people. You need to follow directions and copy the other sick people you meet who are getting better. The only way to learn this stuff is by living it - trying it. Lo hamedrash ha'ikkar, ella ha'ma'aseh.

3) When you say you are "doing this job without Hashem," I believe you do not really mean what we think you mean. I think that to you, "using Hashem" means this: doing Teshuvah, davening harder, doing mitzvos harder, and just 'being good'. You have come to see that such things may not be the answer to your problems, so you are ready to try something else. B'ezras Hashem...

But Hashem is not the same as "putting on tefillin".  Keeping Shabbos is not "Hashem". Hashem is the Borei Olam. His Will is expressed in His Torah, and when I shecht cow properly I am not 'doing Hashem' - I am doing His Will. Let's not confuse things, ok?

So using tefilin and Teshuvah, kashrus, and shmiras eynayim...that is not 'using' Hashem. It is using His mitzvos - not Him. We need a relationship with Hashem - not with our tzitzis or cholov yisroel cottage cheese. In recovery we learn how to use Hashem, with His help. Using yiddishkeit to solve this problem, but not using Hashem for it - that is our disease itself! We try to not masturbate, not look at porn, not do this, not do that - all expecting that act to save us...but only Hashem Himself can save us! Hashem was meant to be used this way, not His mtzvos. They were meant to be used to serve Him.

Using tefillin is a great, great zechus. But to use it to save one from cancer is a grave mistake - it was not meant to be used for that!! Shemiras eynayim is a great zechus and is definitely a yesod for tahara - but is clearly not the solution for lust addiction. It is not meant to be. It defines a clean lifestyle and is a tool for good living, but not a solution in itself. To use it to fight a lifestyle shot through with lusting, is a complete misuse of the mitzvah. V'hee lo sitzlach.

Tefillah is the mitzvah that we Jews are told to use for getting saved from troubles. What's tefillah? A relationship with yiddishkeit, or a relationship with Atzmuso Yisborach? C'mon. It's Him. The halocha is that we do not daven to His middos, partzufin, whatever - we use them, yes, but we daven only to atzmuso Yisborach. That's tefillah and that is what recovery is trying to produce: a real relationship with our own G-d. Teshuvah is the same thing - we do not return to kashrus, Shabbos, or tefillin in teshuvah - we return to Him!!

The halocha also is that after we daven, we must not think that our wish will be granted because of the power of tefilloh, or the power of our kavonoh and sincerity - but only mechasdo Yisborach, period. Only Him Himself giving it to us for free, even though we did not deserve it at all. The attitude of 'deserving the good stuff we get' - including the gift of sobriety, for an addict - is just not a Jewish attitude. We need to be moser nefesh (translate: surrender) - and still know that it's all a free gift. Yoga'ato umotzoso - ta'amin. Even by Talmud Torah, it is a gift - a metziyoh. Not a result of our hard work and deserving. This may be a little nekudaleh for normal people - but for addicts it is a yesod.

OK, enough.

So when are you sharing your story?

"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 22:02 #109820

  • laagvokeles
man you make the 12 steps very dependent on religion, im very confused you wanna tell me i need to be a good jew to do the 12 steps?

what dos a atheist do? cant he do the 12 steps?

cause liscen i am not a american boy with a artscrohl sidur, who can get all waremd up by davening and stuff, i am completly confused. here i run away from comitment to god besides shmirat shabat and now you turned to be my mashgiach....? i thaught 12 steps is magic no go-d envolved, or like you say no mitzvot envolved!
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 22:09 #109823

  • ur-a-jew
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laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 22:02:

man you make the 12 steps very dependent on religion, im very confused you wanna tell me i need to be a good jew to do the 12 steps?

what dos a atheist do? cant he do the 12 steps?

cause liscen i am not a american boy with a artscrohl sidur, who can get all waremd up by davening and stuff, i am completly confused. here i run away from comitment to god besides shmirat shabat and now you turned to be my mashgiach....? i thaught 12 steps is magic no go-d envolved, or like you say no mitzvot envolved!


In goyish we call it דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה

For the atheist:  www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf 
Help free Sholom Rubashkin by giving him the zechus of Shemiras Eiynayim.  www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2809.0
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 22:14 #109825

  • laagvokeles
its 14 pages, what does he explain over there? the 13 ani mamins of the rambam plus one for jesus?
gimme a brake tell me what he says (please? )
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 22:17 #109826

  • ur-a-jew
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laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 22:14:
its 14 pages, what does he explain over there? the 13 ani mamins of the rambam plus one for jesus? gimme a brake tell me what he says (please? )


14 pages and 14 days with no acting out.  Works out perfect.  You can read a page a day.
Help free Sholom Rubashkin by giving him the zechus of Shemiras Eiynayim.  www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2809.0
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 22:19 #109827

  • laagvokeles
;D ( :'( )
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Re: we all want to be good 28 Jun 2011 22:23 #109828

  • ben durdayah
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laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 22:02:

man you make the 12 steps very dependent on religion, im very confused...


Actually, as I told my wife (she doesn't know that I am an addict, but I have discussed the 12 steps in the context of a way of life, and she knows that I dabble in this forum -she just doesn't know why...):

In my limited understanding:

The 12  steps are not about religion -they are about spirituality.

One can scrupulously follow almost all of the tenets of their religion -and even of Orthodox Judaism -and live in a state of total and utter spiritual disconnection.

I'll repeat it in Hebrew for your sake laag -because it is a very fine distinction.

[rtl]12הצעדים הם לא ענין של דת, אלא של רוחניות.
דת מהווה דרך ש(על פי רוב) מטרתו לחבר את האדם עם רוחניות, אבל גם אפשר לקיים את כל הסממנים החיצוניים של מצוות הדת ולהישאר ערטילאי מכל קשר רוחני עם האלוקים!!! 
For Dov and the other two guys who care,
My real name really is
 Eli
Like the original Bendy, Ein hadavar talui ela bee




 
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