laagvokeles wrote on 27 Jun 2011 21:48:


No, but you are starting to show that your problem is not just a YH for pretty girls, or entertainment...it is connected to your picture of life, of happiness, and other things, too. OK, so that is not in the first step, but later - so first lets finish #1, b'ezras Hashem.

There is always time to move on, or you can stop. Whatever you want, chaver.

laagvokeles wrote on 27 Jun 2011 21:48:


now my problem is, that if i am right that it is like a diet, than in a diet we know, that you can cheat here and there.... So why is it so important never ever to masturbate or watch porn?

Because food is necessary and good for you.

Extending your mashal, could you say the same thing for treif and kosher?  That you can just have a little treif and it's OK?  After all, we know it won't kill you.  How about Cholov stam and non-glatt?  Is it different for different people?

Flogging the metaphor to death, one could argue that movies are like Cholov stam - they'll do no perceptible damage to some people, but lots to another.  When I see a Chossid in full-uniform chomping away at a Hershey's bar where he thinks nobody "important" will see him, I know he's probably falling in other areas.  When I see the Mod-Ox kid doing the same thing, I think nothing of it.

If you think it's wrong - it probably is.  The two hard parts to this are (a) being honest with yourself, and (b) acting on it.  Hiding something is a very good way to determine if you consider it wrong...  As we discussed at some length via PM.

im not speacking as a jew.
i am speacking as a goi, whats so wrong to take responsability, and stop to act out on daily basis, but still here and there remember old good times....

by the way i just lost my clean days.

How come you're not at Kollel today?  Is everything otherwise OK?

everething is ok.
but ? just felt like:
i wanna do what ever i want now, and i dont fell like using my head now, its more like sitting on the beach with no responsability

laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 11:50:


laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 11:57:


Doesn't sound like you're okay.

It sounds as if you're profoundly unhappy with life, and are trying to make yourself happy, but not succeeding.  It sounds as if you are starting to feel overwhelmed by something, but don't know what it is (or know but aren't saying).

What excuse did you give Kollel?  I'm sure you didn't say "I wanna do whatever I want now!  I don't feel like using my head now!"  Or is it an official day off somehow?

i am gonna answer u in pm

laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 11:50:


You're 100% right to analyze as a goy.  But only honest goyim (and honest Yidden) have success with the 12 steps.  So an honest goy will look through his 1st step (you nice handwritten megillah) and ask himself what has happened to me in the past when I allowed lust into my life, was I able to stop?  If he can honestly say to himself, oh I've never had a problem watching movies, those don't trigger my lust and the desire to masturbate.  If you can say that then go for it.  If I had to guess I would say you can't honestly say that, otherwise you would have stopped a long time ago.  (And if it really is true than you should be able to accept Dov's request that you stop watching movies for a week).  But if the goy sees that he can't safely watch movies because, in the past, once he started he was unable to stop (until he made himself so sick) than he will say I'm not going to watch movies and I'm not going to even try and cheat, because I know that I can't cheat without my life spiraling out of control.

One other consideration.  Even though you are analyzing like a goy you have to consider the fact that you are not a goy.  And since you are not a goy you conduct yourself outwardly in a certain lifestyle.  Even goyim (at least honest ones) don't want to live a double life.  It doesn't give them a good feeling.  Which is another reason why even "as a Goy" you shouldn't want to cheat.  It helps to look oneself in the mirror.

Continued hatzlacha.

you know what? what about ones in 2 weecks to watch porn and masturbate? whats so bad?
you any way dont manage by never letting your self go, to kill the lust, so בשלמא if after fighting it for a long period with no pause you killed it, i understand. But if any way you dont kill it (like the tanye says about beinunim) whats so wrong to masturbate a little? i am not loosing control, im fighting against it 26 days a month, only 4 days out of them im masturbating.

i agree that with no responsability and with no boundries you loosing your private life bla bla bla, but if i take responsability, here and there i should be able to enjoy it.

true i am a yid and this makes it very very hard about my plan mentioned above.
but lets not mix things, let me first understand the 12 steps as a goi.

laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 15:56:


Ok Goyboy.  The two weeks off period starts from today.  When you're done with that we will discuss about whether you get a day off.

now im in trouble...
but the day didnt finish yet...
when its gonna end its gonna take 2 weeks thill the rash is gonna heal....  ;D

please moderator if you "edit" the message, delete it already and finish....  ;D

laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 16:29:


Actually because we want to test the system of whether you can stop after one "drink" you shouldn't wait unti tomorrow.  The two weeks starts right now.

I agree with you. As a non-Jew (or really, as any irreligious person- I think most monotheistic religions recognize the destructiveness of masturbation), there is nothing really wrong with looking at porn and masturbating once a month. (Assuming, that is, that I don't feel like I'm betraying my wife and she doesn't feel like I'm betraying her. Given the way we were brought up, that seems ....unlikely.)
However, I think part of the what's wrong with me is that I tell myself "I can do it once a month." I can't. Once I pop, I can't stop. Days are destroyed, appointments missed, responsibilities left unmet, hopes crushed. And then, I return to myself, and within a week I repeat the lie that I can do it once a month. I've never been able to keep it to once a month, and I recognize that maintaining my current pace is destructive. And that's while attempting to "quit for good". If I allowed myself once a month, I know with absolute certainty it would become once a day again.
Anyway, this is a highly theoretical case that has nothing to do with me. I am Jewish, and fell terrible guilt and spiritual emptiness when I act out. The shame and disgrace "Bob Goy" feels when going to..... I feel whenever I act out. I feel it destroying me. (And incidentally, I love that feeling, sick dude that I am.) So I have two options. I can stop entirely, something which I have no idea how to do but Bill W. claims he does. Or, I can abandon my feelings of guilt. Decide to stop caring. Become "Bob Goy". I could do that. But It would probably be the biggest aveiro I would ever do.

Yossi wrote on 28 Jun 2011 12:05:


He told them something like this:
laagvokeles wrote on 28 Jun 2011 11:57:


Or perhaps (knowing laag's blunt stlyle) he said:

Teyre Rosh Kollel, I just felt like staying home and j***ing off...