ok, dov.

i wanna do my first step, wich is understanding that i cant help my self.

i think this is against the torah, because the tora says בראתי יצר הרע בראתי תורה תבלין. i know, u say it dosnt apply to me etc, i desagree, but anyway, i have no koach to do it with the torah, lets see if your goishe intelectual way is easier (יותר קל) . (i cant do it my self, i need the torah or the 12 steps to help me, i choose the 12 steps, cause i hope they demand less than the torah.... p.e. i can watch holywood movies)

so i agree that i can see that this lust is making my life a less quality life if not even more than that, and because there is nothing in this world as good as a woman & a orgasm, i just cant let it go, no way.

did i understood the 1 step?
i hope so.

now a very important issue:
im doing 12 steps as a goi does, with no torah involved, if so; i wanna be able to keep watching hollywood movies even if they are triggers.... please tell me thats possible.... cause if no, what is better the goishe 12 steps, than פ"ד תעניתים.....
i really hope u gonna allow me that....

can someone help me i went 6 days now without masturbating and i so wanna masturbate now help wat should i do

Grandma "can't let it go" !?!

"Can't let it go"!?!

Maybe she was "never taught that Hashem is real.. For real"

Maybe all the years in yeshiva were no different than a goy.
just like a goy "doing what all his friends in town do"..."Just learning in yeshivah to be keeping up with the social life".."Just davening because tatti and rebbi say so".. "Just learning to get a good grade and not be left out"..

This I believe.

But "can't let it go"?!?

She sounds like the meraglim! Really just like the meraglim!!

"We can't make it there in Eretz Ha'Kodesh"!!  We can't be in a 'real world' and stay holy!!"

"Oh no!!! Boo hoo!! All those giants are stronger than Hashem".. "No way we can make it!!"



So we all know that Hashem really IS stronger, and this old bag wants us to go like the meraglim, and live a scared life with a wimp G-d!?!

Yep! I was right! A faker old lady! 

Serene smile wrote on 19 Jun 2011 04:34:


(lets say its) true, so?
ohh, i know its probably deffnetly true, cause any one who does not learn tanye is wrong, and dosnt know what yidishkeit is....

so u suggesting i should learn tanye?

what about going to do kiruv, and letting dov do the real job, huh?

we want mshiach now

I'm suggesting that "whatever it takes"(Tanya or no Tanya), a yid CAN let it go. (As hard as it may seem)..

And yes, I am %100 positive that everyone on here does indeed "want Mashiach now"

mros9849 wrote on 19 Jun 2011 02:38:

Do not get lost in the shuffle, mros9849 (whoever you really are)! You are important and should have a personal welcome. Post on one of the boards for introducing yourself here on GYE. Ask one of the real smart members here how to do that, OK? We are with you habibi!!

laagvokeles wrote on 19 Jun 2011 01:03:

If Hollywood movies are triggers, then even a non-Jew doing the 12 steps would stop watching them, if I understand correctly and, regarding this point, I think I do.  Furthermore, you'll probably find lots of non-Jews in the 12-step program who are far more machmir than the Torah regarding these issues, although I have never conducted an official survey.

The goal is to stop lusting.  Nobody can accomplish that goal all they while they keep on lusting.

--Eye.

Before we talk about korbanos, giving anything up, and what to do about the problem, let's see where we are holding, OK?

laagvokeles wrote on 19 Jun 2011 01:03:
Well 'my' way is not intellectual at all - it is behavior. Doing the 'right things' (things like actually being honest and speaking out my trash to others, writing the whole truth about myself and sharing it with others, making a decision to let Hashem take better care of me that I [and the naked women] can, and taking other actions of the steps)....instead of just not doing the 'wrong things' (like looking at naked people or touching myself).

And it demands rigorous self-honesty. If that is less than what the Torah demands of you, then so be it. But that is a sad commentary on what you are calling "the Torah", isn't it...

Next!:


OK, so let me get this right.

I hope you understand that our actual choices and behavior show the truth about what we REALLY believe, right? OK.

So, you are admitting that instead of considering Hashem the source of pleasure and all the Goodness in the world and the source of even Laag's personal yeshuous and nechamos, you consider naked shiksas the source of your best pleasure and private yeshuous and nechamos.

Correct?

If so, then you are at the beginning of the second step - you are ready to start to learn to depend on Hashem to save you from yourself. Because you recognize that the problem is not all the videos and naked people available to you to examine, but that the only problem is you and your crooked beliefs...oops, I meant "us and our crooked beliefs," sorry. 

You are describing what your behavior shows you actually accept as they truth, correct?

No blame here. No guilt here. No worry about good, no worry about evil. That's all irrelevant silly stuff that just mushes everything into a knot from which poor little you and me cannot escape (so we remain hiding with our sweet porn in the corner 'crying for Hashem' - between masturbations - of course). Here we avoid philosophy problems and are only interested in the facts about us. I guess you consider facing the plain truth "intellectual" and not 'Torah'. Whatever.

Then you wrote


The admission that you cannot let it go, even though you know that, as you wrote
...well, that means that you are broken. You love it so much and cannot see ever parting from it (instead of seeing your G-d that way!) - and it is ruining your quality of life.

And you can't possibly seriously think that the "Tavlin" addresses this kind of mishega'as? You are describing insanity, my friend. What part of Torah fixes that? The part that says "don't look at porn!", or is it the part that says "refuah is goyish!"? OK, sorry, enough about that shtus.

So you are indeed in some trouble, Rabbi. And I know how that feels, indeed. Exactly, in fact. I have the same disease of the brain, obsession and allergy of the body. If I intentionally look at shmutz for pleasure, it quickly becomes the most important thing in the world. My body cries out for more, as though I will die without it. Exactly.

It's a lie. You do not need it, and I do not need it. It's funny, really. Here we are saying "we do not need it" - and we are talking about something that is ruining our lives! That's chochma? OK...but we need just this kind of talk, for every one of us really believes in our guts 100% that we will die without it! No wonder our wive think we are nuts and cannot understand. 

OK, so what next, chaver?

 

even i have questions on your שקלא וטריא, i will focus at the מסקנא, and only ask you whats really relevant, cause i am tired, i just want to be good ones for all.

so, what u say that i feel that without it i would die, i hope its just a expression to bring out your point, cause i dont feel so... i just have the lust right next to me, meaning: i have the super sensation from one site, and the "brains" from the other site sayng "this is not good for you", and  i just go for the actual moment דהיינו the super unbelievebele lust sensation.... but its not that i feel i die without it, is it a problem?

an other thing u didnt tell me is, what about watching movies....? i mean i am not in a matzav u can ask from me to give up even a bit of entertainemet, right?
please this needs a solution...
i dont have nothing in this world to entertain me....
(i need to put a filter, but i first have to know wich sites to block... I DONT WANT TO BLOCK TELEVISON AND FILMS, no way, this 12 steps mechanic and inventor, i hope figured it out how to stay with cnn and brad pit !

Laag, my friend - you are the same man in a slightly different suit right now.  You started off:
laagvokeles wrote on 19 Jun 2011 01:03:


And I was really excited for you!

But then...




Why are you looking at the 12 steps?  Because (and you amaze me with the Yiddishe kopf logic) if a goy can become sober, and keep TV and movies...  Why can't I?  And if a goy does it with 12 steps, then the 12 steps should work to allow me to stop the pornography and masturbation, and keep TV and movies!

Brilliant stuff

I must admit that I can't help you too much, because I don't actually see movies as being evil and against Torah, per se.  I see television as unhealthy, and choose not to have one, and I believe in moderated content for the movies I choose to watch...  But you seem to have this idea that they are all (entertainment, pornography, masturbation) in the "black" category of the "black and white Torah".  Fine - great Rabbonim uphold this notion, and I can see damage from some forms of entertainment, but nevertheless, I cannot see the world in that way, myself - even if I can respect it.

You don't want to change, you want to not change, but have Hashem magically whisk away the problem that you see.

I, frankly, don't see the problem in the way you see it, and I think I see problems that you don't - that have little to do with pornography or masturbation (as I have written above, and won't repeat).  Hatzlocho!

I am talking about our recovery and you bring distractions. Nothing but distractions and smoke. So again:

The 1st step the drunks wrote was this:

1- We admitted we were powerless over _____ and that our lives have become unmanageable.

So.

Do you agree that your life is unmanageable because you are messing up your personal, inside, inescapable and true life...or not?

Do you agree that you are powerless over it because you cannot imagine living without it and that you try to control it but it doesn't work? That means you do not have the power to control it - you are without power. Do you agree, or not?

Next:

2- We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Do you believe that based on the facts about you, you are missing some sanity - that you are screwed up in the head about lusting, and also about other important things in life like: that it is OK to lie like crazy to everyone about you (which you do keseider); that your wife and children are sort of irrelevant and often a pain in the behind; that Hashem really messed up with you, because obviously naked shiksas are the best, so what's the big gedillah with Torah and mitzvos and living a clean good life? "Who needs that, when I can get nudes and orgasms any time I want? He is silly, this G-d, no? Haha." And that "There are many other emotional areas of life where I feel I am unable to handle real life correctly, so I escape into my sweet porn cuz I love it so." 

Does any of this fit you? Or are you still mesupak and think you really might be "basically OK"....?

Which is it?

Stop with silly distractions, Rabbi, and get to the simple facts that any goy drunk will have to do for sobriety. You are no better in this illness than any of them and neither am I.

So which is it? Just answer the questions. I ask above, that's it.

Just want to say, LV - I love you, and it sounds like you're struggling between what you know you need to do, and what a part of you wants to do.

I've been there. Without a lot of Hashem's help, I wouldn't be where I am today. I can understand how difficult it can be to give up the things we feel we need.

As far as Dov's line about feeling like we'll die without it...we do feel that way. When we say that we "need" something, we feel like we can't live without it. We don't think we'll literally die without it, but those are the feelings and thoughts we have when we're desperate. Maybe we even feel like life without that stuff wouldn't be worth living.

Laag,

Here's something I wouldn't recommend to just anyone, but I would recommend it to you:

Maybe forget about the movies for now.

Make a list of all your lustful activities.  Then, for the fun of it, prioritize them.  You could even post this list here on your thread if you so desire, but you could just keep it to yourself.

START WITH SOMETHING.

What?  I don't know.  M*sturbation.  Hard Porn.  Prostitutes.  Gay bars.  Cut SOMETHING of lust out of your life, or at least CUT BACK.  Get your footing (though it will not be as easy while other things, "milder" things, are still triggering you).  Then take another step, tackle the next easiest thing on your list.

Forget about the movies.  I'm sure there's plenty of other things you could start with that wouldn't make you feel in need of artificial respiration devices or burial plots, etc.

--Eye.

dov wrote on 19 Jun 2011 14:59:

All u ppl are greate!
Thanks a lot!
Jester u as usual, put me down naked, so clearly I love it!
Dov dov dov! I don’t know if to love u or kill u, cause I am sure that if I would not have found this site a halve year ago I would be by my calculating (עפ"י חשבון) by my 7th up and down….
But because I found this site, it took away the ground below my feet, it gave me the feeling im wasting my time with my own approach how to deal with this (even im not so sure about it, and its not a פירכא in my first step, cause i always knew i cant do it my self, just my aid was hashem, and now ist gonna be the 12 steps).

But from the other site maybe its better so, cause if I liscen to u sweet dov, maybe ill stay up ones and for all…. Amen.

Dov I know u are a working man with children, and I cant tell u how much I appreciate u give me away time and pacience.

You don’t let me talk so ill just say with my hand on a bible and big fat lady judge in front of me : i agree im powerless over this lust, and only higher power can rstore me (I CHOOSE 12 STEPS FOR THIS GREATER POWER)

eye i cant speack about your issue dov dosnt let.... (i didnt put a filter yet either....)

dov i hope u shave, cause i wanna kiss u and not get שטעכט...

i just wanna add one more thing, i already feel better now, cause i feel like its not my responsability so much now, cause im forcing my self to believe im sick, and dov is my dr, and i wait for his recepy instructions....

(what i mean by "forcing my self that i am sick is: I KNOW i need outside help, but there MAYBE COULD BE 2 paths
12 steps
teshuva
and i am going for the 12 steps, and living hashem out of this...)

jester u make me laugh, i must say u understand even a bad english as mine...