So what do you do with such a child?

I was lucky - Hashem, in his mercy, forced the medicine down my throat.  Even then, it was not enough to cure me, but enough to revive me after my death.

Why do I say death?

You say that  is "מסירות נפש כפשוטו ממש" - I agree.

When a person is embarrassed, it is as if they have died, and we know that, when one publicly humiliates a person, it is as if they have committed murder.  Sometimes, a person is forced to give up an addiction that is dear to them physically, through sheer public scrutiny, humiliation and social pressure.  This is like dying, and then being purged forcibly.  Life after this may or may not revert back to baseline (addiction), but this is often a turning point for many.

This happened to me.  It is as if I died guilty, was purged, and came back for round 2.  Was I better?  No.  I blew that chance.

Giving up an addiction is like losing a part of ones self.  It is literally as scary as giving up a limb or a child; so much so that addicts will sacrifice many things before letting go of the addiction.  As horrific as this sounds, it actually sounds worse to the addict, who might recognize this and, between falls, feel the most abject depression and entrapment.  It is hard to believe that there is "life" without our crutch, and we are like children who won't take medicine (not a perfect example, but it will do).

Sometimes, someone will catch themselves, through love or fear, of or for self or Hashem, and work things out.  Doing this is like shedding an old body, and can be truly like death and rebirth - but like a Tzaddik.  The Tzaddik does not die like us, because he does not lose anything in death - he is not "attached" to the schmutz like we are.  He is gaining, without giving up (give up what?!)!  This is where "מסירות נפש" is evident.  And it is the most amazing opportunity!  How many people secretly wish (sometimes) to be given the opportunity to "take a bullet" for Hashem?  (OK - maybe I'm going out on a limb here, and nobody else feels this way sometimes)  Oh, and of course, there is no "round 2" after this, if the person has actually changed, he's living in Gan Eden (of sorts).

This is just my fancy, and I bet that many people will (probably rightly) disagree.  It's how I feel about things.  And I believe that Hashem, if He is kind with us, gives it to us forcibly if we don't change it ourselves.

But fear of this alone wouldn't change someone (I don't think) - addicts take bigger risks than this.  To go down the other route is tougher, and it's learning to want, not just to want to want, and that comes about from changing who you are.  So the Mesiras Nefesh is not giving up, per se.  It's the work that leads to giving up.  And with that work, the sacrifice is far less painful, and the Mesiras Nefesh is a natural conclusion.

It is quite possible that I don't make sense in this post, by the way.  I've stretched my license a lot here.  I don't usually dump how I feel about things without thinking them through

laagvokeles wrote on 02 Jun 2011 14:23:


I thought you said it is the other way around - you need Hashem to help you.  In fact, that's what you said "exactly" to.  Make up your mind.




You need a vitamin from Hashem, right?  Because nothing you, I or anyone else can do will help you (you said).




So being frum (I want to register here that I hate that word!) is ticking the boxes, because we must...  And there are lucky ones who like to tick the boxes?

they say medicine is good for one thing and bad for other things....
my english is bad, and your post was long... But i understood u mean that i gotta go to sa meetings, correct?
its out of the question. sa meatings IF they would help me, they would also ruin the rest of my life. not intrested.period.
you dont fix your limb and loose your brain.


i need hashem to help me.



about the frum question. i dont know what "tiking boxes means". but been frum is just doing what hashem wants.
hashem wants we should enjoy this world etc... (i am not sure what u mean, its like asking "so, u keep the law, what do u feel when u keep the law?")

laagvokeles wrote on 02 Jun 2011 15:17:


My english is perfect and there is nothing in jester's post about going to sa meetings.  Maybe you're starting to hallucinate.

so tell me uraj בקיצור נמרץ what  is the סך הכל from his post, in 3 words. youll help me and him.

(by the way jester i knew u gonna like my כפשוטו ממש.... i hear that expression a lot from a big big rebbe...)

laagvokeles wrote on 02 Jun 2011 15:17:

No, I did not say that, nor did I mean that.  Should I be offended that you didn't read my post? :'(




Looks like you don't need the SA meetings after all

i did read your post!
a few times!
and i didnt dig out, only, even its hard swallow it!
right?

(there is nothing nothing, i can do without hashem, no big chidush that porn cure is one of them)

laagvokeles wrote on 02 Jun 2011 15:22:


In three words it is difficult because there is so much chochma in it.  Makes you appreciate Rashi.  In three words the best I can do is to say:  No porn = death.  But that would miss alot of what Jester was trying to say.

Which is to an addict giving up porn is like giving up life itself, and no one really likes to give up their own life.  So one of three options happen: 1) they are moser nefesh and give up "life" as they know it on their own free will in which case they are like the tzaddik who gives up his life but in reality has "given up" nothing since he gets "olam haba."  So too the addict gives up his "life" but he sees that he didn't "give up" anything he gained "olam haba" on this world;  2) they do nothing, ending up with death here and in the next world; or 3) if Hashem is kind to them (this is a kindness because otherwise they will be left with option 2), he "kills" them by giving up their life for them, that is by putting them through a situation that they have to give up the "life" they've been living.  Some people get techiyas hameisim after this but wish that they would have taken the opportunity to be moiser nefesh when they had the chance.

laagvokeles wrote on 02 Jun 2011 15:40:


It is true that it was probably a bit difficult to understand - it was quite rambling.  Native English speakers would probably have an easier time of it.




So you're stuck.

ur-a-jew wrote on 02 Jun 2011 15:48:


Oh, now why couldn't I say it like that!  Thank you!

urajew- ura angel. thanks.

jester welcome aboard.....
נאכל ונשתה כי מחר נמות

laagvokeles wrote on 02 Jun 2011 15:53:


Someone told me that people who do that are full of.....

laagvokeles wrote on 02 Jun 2011 15:17:
If our limbs are ruling over our brains already, what do we really have to lose any more?  You are a sweet man, but the pathetic way you have given up and chosen your comfort and convenience over everything else, makes me feel very sad for you. You are choosing your comfort over everything - do you not see that? It's by far #1 to you. You are choosing your comfort over Hashem's help - do you not see that?

I do not blame you, though, as I am just as pathetic and only do the uncomfortable once there is no other way.

So Laag...

What is today's short vort?  Not too short, please - a little meat would be good.  Not a 32oz steak - even an 8oz will do!

Who knows - perhaps we should feast, for tomorrow...  But even a small vort is fine.