;D

i must say u manage to piss me off...... if there is a insult its a man been considered a lady....
man u got my שוואכע נקודה.......


      )אוי וויי dont take me seriously its again a joke.... even there is a lot of trouth in it ...... אוי וויי  i dont mean it serious again.... only kind of...)

VGoss iz mit der "only kind of"!?

Gevalt! Don't you know I am a sensitive woman!!

(I hope 7up is not reading this or we could get into some serious trouble...)

I love you, you good-for-nothing impatient idiot......(was that better?)

dov wrote on 27 Feb 2011 14:08:


After all those posts insisting that Dov is your real name. So much for the openess and honesty thing 

It's Dovelinah, buster.

ok - ladies... behave yourselves...

why dont you both grow up - and fight it out like men.
at the count of 3 -

why dont you both put up your (virtual) dukes.. and come out fighting..

and then you can kiss and make up and move forward...

Bardie - maybe you can offer these guys each a l'chaim, if they decide to make shalom!

hi laag...

welcome to the crazy house..
feel free to drop back, relax and be yourself...

we all love you - no matter who you are, and what you've done.

(the other) dov(a'luv).in.israel

aka. dov.ii

First the lechayim, then another lechayim, and only then will I be willing to....have a nother lechamy, and one more lehmhavy...then before we fihtg, one more leghtayim and antohetr one fir the roawd and mdfff.........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

dov wrote:
Yes, actually 90% of the addicts that I know in SA are goyim, and only a few of them are religious goyim. (The religious ones generally believe that masturnbation is a sin and that porn is wrong, too.) In fact, sorry if this is trigerring to others, but there are women in SA, too, and all of them consider masturbation as their bottom line behavior just like men do. Your question would make no sense out of that at all, because what could be so bad about a woman doing that? There is no zera levatola!

Ella what....? Why do they go there? Why do they want to stop? This is your question, I think.

I have actually met zero - yes, zero - guys who are in recovery like mine who are purely motivated by frumkeit or morality. In my experience, the only ones who get better are the ones who cannot take doing this terrible aveiro any more because it messes up their life in some way. Their recovery, like mine, is selfish. In AA they call it 'enlightened self-interest'. It is the same exact method the RMCh"L uses in Ch 1 of Messilas Yeshorim where he lays it all out and proves that

1- ein odom meis vechatzi ta'avosav b'yado;
2- you are no smarter than anyone else and will not beat the system, smarty pants;
3- life has all sorts of difficulties - and then you die anyway; so it's a waste of your time! And -
4- kol tzaddik nichveh meichupaso shel chaveiro - if you are jealous of other people's great money, gorgeous wife, fantastic kavod, etc., then think how it will drive you crazy when you get in Olam ha'Emess and see the s'char to everyone else is more than yours?!

So the RMCh"L uses enlightened self-interest to motivate a yid to be frum. Hashem uses it in the Torah when He says we'll have it good in Olam hazeh with riches, kavod, and (not get thrown out of) Eretz Yisroel, etc.

Same thing here. The only thing that is really valuable to anybody is something a person sees he needs.

This might sound mean, but I believe it: Frum people who are upset about the terrible aveiro they are doing - yet do not stop - just want to be absolved of the shame of failure, the self-loathing, the guilt of doing the aveiro. Perhaps they also want to be forgiven. They do not really need to stop. They just want to.

The only time we stop something that feels so good is when we need to. And the only thing that makes us need to is when it makes our real life really unmanageable. It is pure selfish self-preservation.

We see this in Iyov. He lost his house, his cattle and farms, even (all) his own children. And he still said, "Nu. Hashem is OK". But wwhen he got tzora'as, something in him cracked. The soton knew it would be a different level and said, "let me give him a negain his own flesh!".

That is the way it works: It can be horrible and terrible - but until it touches our very flesh, we will not crack. Once we see it threatens our survival in some respect, then it suddenly has 'meaning'.

Now, I believe that for some yidden their "survival" includes a good relationship with Hashem, because they are truly deeply ma'aminim amd holy. These people will not need much tzoros to result from their masturbation or porn - they will see where it is leading them and will quit - because that defines 'survival' to them. It is still enlightened self-interest.

But I have not seen many who are in that madreigah. Maybe one.

Thanks to Hashem that I did not get tricked to think I was on that madreigah for very long! I see so many who are and all that happens to them is that they become huge fools as the disease plays with them until they have trashed their lives and the lives of their families, R"l. When those guys come in to the recovery rooms they are a real ugly mess. But even they get better. Nu.

The question is whether the use of schmutz and masturbation is ruining our lives or not. If it is and we find ourselves still using it, then to me that defines an addict. And me'idoch gisa it is the only hope for them  ever getting better - that they see they are made complete fools by their compulsion.

At that point, it becomes crystal clear to the lucky ones, that it doesn't matter is their compulsion is sex, porn and other aveiros - or if it is alcohol, overeating or spending money that are essentially mutar. The piont now is that the way they do it is a problem. It is a disease now.

Get me?

עד כאן לשון קדשו של דב

but tell me dov.
i think my מצב is like this:
i belong to the ppl that for theyr survival they gotta shake hands with hashem, be wih him in good relation, but evendo i want to and id love to, masturbation is just one of the things i  do like eatting and sleeping, and כנראה that i am not so much despert to be a complet nice jew, only whats eazzy, lucky me שמירת שבת is eazzy and i dont watch porn even when its 2 days iom tov and then stil a shabes that makes it 3 days... luck me.

about my wife i think i dont have to worry becuse before חרם דרבינו גרשם ppl use to marry a few wives and evendo everyboddy was happy, על אחת כמה וכמה me that i am only married to one, u just masturbate here and there, i should be capable to make my wife happy..... (and i dont understand ppl that get caught by theyr wifes.... its like someone letting a small boy crossing te street alone.... it just dos not happen!  IF YOU ARE CAREFOOL IT DOS NOT HAPPEN)
בקיצור:  what am i loosing besides גן עדן  by masturbating etc?
i wish u manage to tell me something that it would take the ground away below my feet

reb laag, i mean this in a friendly way and not as an affront.
are you entirely ok with masturbation? do you not feel guilt about it? do you not feel like you are betraying yourself, your wife, your children, Hashem? do you not see that it shuts off your logical mind for the duration?
you don't have to answer
i suspect that you are bothered by some pangs of conscience, otherwise why would you come here to GYE
you are a yid with a neshoma and you know and feel that it is wrong, but that knowledge and feeling is just not strong enough to stand in the face of the tempting pleasure and release of the masturbation and the habitual behavior. you are looking for Dov or anyone to provide some real solid arguments to help in the battle.
i hope you find the ratzon and whatever else is needed to put your self in a better situation.
behatzlocha

First of all, ever since I realized I was sober and changing (after about a year of not having to act out) I have been spelling my name molei, not chosair. So get it right next time in the cool Hebrew font thing you do.

Whew, that was tough.

OK, so there will be frummies (and you know who you are) who may take my answer out of context, but that's not my business (you are not one of them), so here it is:

Not really. But I will say that SA opened my eyes to the fact that masturbation is sex with someone other than my wife: myself. I know my wife quite naturally sees it as that, too. In fact, I bet that 90% or more of the frummie wives out there who "catch" their husbands looking at porn or masturbating freak out about it because they know that it is a betrayal to them. They see it and know it.

True, the frum world looks at it as an issue of aveiro - but I tend to believe that what really gets their goat is the shock that their own husband would actually go to get sexual satisfaction using another woman's image and even use her to have his hand do the job that they always thought was a connection between them and their husbands.

"Kodesh hakodoshim" some people have called it lately....yes it is - as Rav Noach Weinberg used to say, Kodesh means "special". Sex is the most special expression between husband and wife - it gives definition to the woman and that is why they say ein isha koresses bris ella b'mi she'osa osah kli. They know this in their guts....sadly, we men are oblivious to it because all we care about is getting that nice orgasm. Pathetic, but nu...me included.

That is one reason it sure is nice to know that I am changing a bit through recovery and seeing my wife as a person and becoming aware of the true depth and meaning of our relationship and what sex really represents.

Once this living moshol is understood, kaboloh gives us the nimshal and everything is brought up to another world for us, they say. Life is more than what it appears....but not for me when I have my face stuck in Playboy.

Do you want any of this? It's really not that bad, you know. 

hey Laag...

this is the other Dov (in Israel) - mind if I jump in, and add my 2 cents (dont worry the dollar keeps dropping against the shekel...so its not really worth 2 cents anyway... )

in my Tuesday phone group - we are using an experimental method of recovery.
the idea is to tap into the right side of the brain (the more creative side), and seemingly the less affected side of the brain when it comes to visual addictions (like internet, p*rn, etc )

we are using an analogy...to understand where we are, and how we go here.

briefly, the story is like this...

Q:What is the buzzing we sense going on in our brains?
A: An invisible MUD wasp (frankly you can call it whatever you want: addiction, disease, trigger, or mud wasp., or whatever makes you happy, as long as you realize you have to do something to deal with it! _ )

Q: What does the mud wasp do?
A: Builds a wasp nest out of mud - which makes us feel dirty (its an analogy - get it.. MUD wasp...dirt)

Q: Why do we have such a hard time with spiritually while we are acting out - and for several days after?
A: the mud in our brain blocks out the (spiritual) Light

Q: whats really going on?
A: the addiction (or mud wasp, whatever) are literally eating our mind.. and destroying us (really!! )

Q: What can we do?
A: rebuild that which was destroyed... little by little...work on breaking through the mud nest.. (or destroyed brain cells) ..retraining ourselves, to bring the light in...Grow Spiritually, reach out to others, learn about what is going on... come out of isolation,e tc

@Dov - how am doing?

or as Bard might say - the road might have been destroyed... but we still need to Keep on Trucking!!
@Bard - how does that sound? am i getting it?

AA/SA - the message is keep coming back.
- Bottom line.., Grow Spiritually...its the only way to rebuild that which has been destroyed!
- its like a built in safety switch which the awesome Creator of the Universe has given us!

Dov.ii

U got it right

dov in israel and zemiros shabos thanks for the enlightment

now to the original dov:
dov i love my self, period.  true i love my wife too, but evendo i do what i do, why? first i love my self more.... ;D
second i am not so sure a woman has the right to be upset about what i do...., i mean 1000 years ago it was ok i should actually f!" a diffrent woman and it was fine, also the toiro lets us, just רבינו גרשם wanted to helps us....
any way please dont atack me with my second reason its not נוגע i just wrote it for the funn....לחידודא מילתא and there is really a lot into it...וצריך עיון גדול מאוד מאוד ליישב הדבר בשופי ;D

we all know that the main reason i masturbate its because evendo i love my wife i am selfish....

so my question goes again:
why should i stop? why should i take away from my "meal" the main plate? why should i sacrifice so much (מצד גשמיות ווייל מצד רוחניות i have a open bible i dont need you)
i am doing this for 10 years on and off never never got caught! did tshuva 1000000 times why should i do my self a hadaiche? why not to make peace with the situation?
please convince me...(sorry if i am pressuring you )

LVK,

I know you directed your question to DOV, so this response is not to you, but to who ever else might be reading the thread.

I too tried convincing myself this should not come between me and my wife, after all m'din torah two wives are allowed. I am not going to try to debate the issue and I certainly was not around 1000 years ago. I can say that since getting my problems under control, my marraige has improved so much and my life is so much better that I am now now controlling myself because I want to be happy. My selfishness tells me to control myself becaue that results in my being happier.

What you want to convince yourself is your business, but I think the experience of many people here (certainly mine) is that for your own selfish reasons you should control yourself (not just for G-D, for yourself)

LVK,

By the logic you're using, a man would be able to have an affair without being considered unfaithful to his wife.  As they say, don't try this at home (or anywhere else, for that matter).  In any event, it seems obvious that when a man marries today, it is with the implicit Tenai that Cheirem d'Rabbeinu Gershom will be observed.  So, it's irrelevant what things would have been like had Rabbeinu Gershom not promulgated his Cheirem.

On another note, it is well known that the Zohar says that there is no Teshuva for Zera Levatalah.  Although it's clearly not meant to be taken literally, it does require an explanation.  One explanation for this, as discussed in The Light of Ephraim, is that once a person has done this aveira many times, he no longer wants to do Teshuva.  That's why the first step can be very difficult.  But, after taking the first step, things will, b'Ezras Hashem, get gradually easier over time.