you are right. did i ever said im ready to work hard? not yet.... u understood very good my last two megila post

(by the way
you mixed things i said tryeen to be funny and things i said seriously.
castration-funny
miracle from hashem- serious
be filled etc- serious

so about the 2 serious things i wrote whats the problem? cant hashem do a miracle and change me?. but any way u are right, im saying it all the time! no koach to change, but that is not the issue now, the issue now is to be free of having a option of 12 steps)

laagvokeles wrote on 26 Jul 2011 15:28:


He certainly could, but why should He?

i just hope dov dosnt loose focus (dos dov know how to go back to last page and see how he can help me?)

laagvokeles wrote on 25 Jul 2011 21:08:

You know, La'ag - there you did it again. UAJ just described the ilmolei business perfectly clearly, shared about how it is a process not a sudden total change - and all you took out of it was the line about ripping your heart out. You still think it must be a total change in one shot. I think you just cannot accept that you are mediocre. Just an average guy.

Either you are flying high on a wave of imagined "real" deveikus (that you know will eventually be converted into deveikus with an imaginary woman's privates in a week or a month later) - or you ripping your heart out for Hashem to finally change this pattern of yours.

Oy li miyitzri, oy li meyotzri is your battle cry!

Such a soldier gets run over and is ignored the rest of the battle. It's pathetic way of keeping the status quo and  not having to change at all. I am a victim of either G-d, or my yetzer! Either way I am screwed! Fix me!

No other guy in the program looks at his sponsor to fix him. The only guys I have ever seen refer to their sponsor as their higher power that will save them - never get sober. They never even want to get sober. They flop because they know that no human can be perfect. The day will come when the 'sponsor-god' will bleed like a real man. Then they will have an excuse to leave. No-strings-really-attached recovery. Pathetic.

Jack tells you that we all start somewhere. That we all start imperfectly. I started very imperfectly on and off for the first four years or so of my sobriety. But I never hid it! I shared the truth about my imperfect sobriety in every meeting - lo nik'chad mimeko. Acceptance of my mediocrity saved my behind. The help is here. Start imperfectly and without much self-respect.

Instead of caring to save your face, how about caring to save your behind?  Your face ain't that pretty, I think.

And that is not an insult.

I suggest joining a step-group soon that is working the steps from #1. Maybe you can work the steps and do sharing for a few months in a phone group and that will be enough for you even without face-to-face meetings.

Maybe.

You knew about them. Why have you not tried that before? Is that still too much for your pretty face?

SA has phone meetings. There are phone meetings on GYE. Nu?

laagvokeles wrote on 26 Jul 2011 11:56:


Bad news La'ag: Most of your 'arguments' are נותן טעם לפגם even תוך כדי דיבור...

Why do these words keep on flashing through my head whenever I read this thread? 

If you'd stop asking questions, stop trying to get out of doing something, stop asking for a heter for what is destructive to you, and stop looking for the easy way out before anything else....then you'd just get to work and nock off the nonesense. You'd be OK.

kelesvelaag wrote on 26 Jul 2011 21:01:
Have you ever heard of na'aseh v'nishmah, or are you in another religion? And when you finally 'understand', do you for a minute believe it is really 'understanding"? Or do you agree with me that the ta'am appeals to you now only because it 'makes sense' to your personal p'niyos and other shtuyot that you are beholden to. 

V'el binas'cha al tisha'en is from another religion?
I had no idea I was in the wrong religion. I say that your religion is really one thing: What appeals to you. Even what you call 'mesiras nefesh' is really what makes you feel like a tzaddik inside. So it is not any mesirah after all.

Did you 'understand' any of that?

No problem. The group which I am a part of will iy"H start the machzor of the 12 steps in about 4 months. In the meantime, join an SA phone group. You can get the phone groups #s from the SA website or off GYE website somewhere. That will be a great start, then when you are part of the new group of Dov's Desperados, you will be ahead of the game!

An Ode to my chaver Laag:

To be good he did want, so he came like so many
the problem is he didn't want it to cost a penny

Masturbating gives pleasure, movies are great
Unlike this "goyish" stuff to which I can't relate

Steps up and down just give it to me straight
Tell me the magic pill that I'll no longer masturbate

In circles we went around until Guard say enough
No more posting or pm'ing as he slapped on the cuffs

Thank goodness I'm not the one running the show
The one who decides who will live and who will go.

Since with all the back and forth a neshama was in a struggle
wondering is it possible for olam haba and olam hazeh to juggle?

That the Dovish and Jestering didn't go to waste can't be denied
Since a little bit of Laag is what we all have inside

Of this I can say Laag at times you did frustrate
I just hope you get help before they say checkmate

Some lessons of life from your struggle I did learn
My tefillah to Hashem is that you make a u-turn

There is so much to be said for straight living
If you try it you'll say, hey Dov really wasn't kidding

Sweet. A moment of silence at tachanun every Monday and Thursday when we say the words "la'ag vokeless". I will repeat this now, though:

If he needs it and actually does venture one day into SA meetings and is able to stoop in humility to gain recovery and sobriety even though there are goyim there , I say it is a kiyum of his own befeirisheh posuk:

"La'ag vokeless ba'goyim"! (among goyim)

Nu. Anyhow, as the great tzaddikim taught us, "a person is where his machshovah is" - so schmutz actors and schmutz in general are mostly goyim. So in porn use and fantasy, we are already ba'goyim! Better this way (meetings) than more of that (schmutz), no?

;D 8)

gggggggg

lol

laagvokeles wrote on 26 Jul 2011 15:28:


out of a lot of love, and a little eensy weensy sobriety, i will share.
i hate to break it to you my great friend. you have great aspirations and goals and a torah destination that you want to reach and encourage you all the way to get there., but im also gonna let you in on a little kabalah secret. we receive hashgacha pratis and help depending on what level we are on-i dont know you, but if you dont mind me saying, you probably dont deserve a miracle. you know, even for big gedolim God does not usually perform miracles. and here is the real heartbreaker-you probably dont deserve any more than the 12 steps. yes, it is bigoyim, but who told you that you are rauy to receive higher than that right now. thats where we all started. bagoyim..... me too, .....sa. you know why? because i was a kofer a kaasan a baal tayva a rasha mirusha. i was more defiant than nebuchadnetzer, and like it says in the 12 and 12 "we had been asking something for nothing."

thank hashem i was zoche to any help at all, bigoyim or not. you know, al pi din, the second we'd take a peek at a woman outside, we should be run over by a truck. but god is reaaaaallll nice to us. he gives us lots of love, and time to figure things out.
so then we make the mistake to say "hey, i wasnt run over by a truck today, that ,must mean that i am a tzaddik gamur." really, he is no tzaddik, just god is reaaalll nice to him and waiting for him to realize that any help at all, begoyim or not, is a bbbiiiiiiiggggg zchus. a chidush. a miracle if you will. you want miracles? the fact that you have gye and an option to join dovs despotsparadoes is a miracle.

i say this from my own experience. i am sober today and it is a miracle, because al pi din i would be in a sewer somewhere in malaysia with hiv and nothing else. so that is a miracle. go for the torah, really. but recognize your place, friend. if it is bagoyim than thank god for your current cheilek, work a program, get clean and a little tahara. pray and cry to hashem to be zoche to the torah way. great. but start being sober today, bagoyim. that is what today brings. try to change it with hashems mercy. but also start today. this is no contradiction. it is more humbling than anyhthing else, to bring ourselves to the mirror and admit the truth. masturbation and lust is not biseder. and thats what we did a thousand 2000 times. so now we must start from the bottm, bagoyim, and if you move past the goyim, good for you. it means you did a lotta work and were worthy of rachamim.
tachlis; god wants you to be sober today and take the steps to get it. mesillas yisharim 101. every 8th grader knows that.
i wish you hatzlacha.

An epilogue:  I was talking to my friend Laag recently and he commented about how his thread still gets read and he remarked that people probably look based on the name "we all want to be good" thinking they can find a solution here. I thought about it this on Shabbos when I saw a vort from Rav Brevda Shlita quoted in 10 minutes a day to a better marriage (a great book) on the gemara "the one who comes to purify himself is assisted" by Hashem. Says Rav Brevda the gemara "does not say 'the one who wants to purify himself ... '; rather its says 'the one who comes to purify himself...'  Everyone would like to be pure but not everyone is willing to put in the effort required.  Everyone would like to be assisted from Heaven toward his goal of self-improvement. But only those who take the first agonizingly difficult step will merit Siyata Dish'Maya."  So for those who come to this thread because they want to be good realize that wanting to be good is not enough, and this thread is one of the best testaments to that fact.