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TOPIC: Religious pain 6092 Views

Re: Religious pain 16 Jul 2025 12:07 #438996

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Shalom Brother bright,

I don't want to misunderstand your thoughts.

Can you expand on your initial share of not believing (that YKW brought up) vs the end of your response that we can live with the questions?

It seems like the former is what you don't want or can't accept, while the latter is davka about acceptance, but you write very deeply and maybe I missed your point. 

Thank you and Kol Tov
Today is yesterday's tomorrow.
The yetzarim a person has the most trouble dealing with are his most powerful God-given tools for developing his potential and achieving shleimus.
It doesn't matter how big the number is, only that today it is going up by one.
There is no "just" when it comes to lust.

Please feel free to reach out. I'd appreciate connecting with you (via GYE, email, or phone - whatever floats your boat)
A little about me: guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/412971-I-Want-to-Help-Others

Re: Religious pain 16 Jul 2025 19:32 #439024

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Sorry but can you elaborate the specific question? The first paragraph was my understanding were YKW was coming from (Hogwarts of course). The second part was what, IMHO, is the response.
Nothing good grows in the dark. 
Last Edit: 16 Jul 2025 19:38 by bright.

Re: Religious pain 17 Jul 2025 17:07 #439077

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bright wrote on 16 Jul 2025 19:32:
Sorry but can you elaborate the specific question? The first paragraph was my understanding were YKW was coming from (Hogwarts of course). The second part was what, IMHO, is the response.

I will try. 
You seem to be saying that the horrific suffering that we've endured appears to be over the top punishment for sins of people genuinely trying to do their best in tough situations. It doesn't make sense that we deserve that extreme of a response. In a moment of weakness, a good child stole a candy and so he got his hand chopped off. Or a child that did nothing wrong was raised in a dysfunctional/abusive home. It doesn't track, it’s unjust, and I can’t accept that this child should feel that the punishment fits his crime.

Did Bnei Yisroel deserve to suffer in Mitzrayim because they were bad, or was it a complex tikkun and there was a bigger picture necessitating that event for G-dly reasons?

I don’t know why bad things happen to good people, or how the degree of punishment and suffering is calculated. But that doesn’t mean it’s incorrect.

To say that I don’t believe it sounds like there is an error in the system itself, as opposed to living with questions which is acknowledging and accepting that there are errors (or missing information) from my perspective.

So to me it seemed like your response didn’t align with your original post. Which is why I was thinking maybe I misunderstood what you meant in one (or both) posts.

We are a living paradox, both a spark of the divine, higher than angels, and a spec of dust whose end is maggots and worms. I need to feel both. Ahavah and yirah. Maybe that’s what you elaborated on in your response, that there are multiple, seemingly opposite approaches that ought be mutually exclusive, yet both are parts of the same truth.

I don’t know if it entirely rests upon whether I deserve it or earned it. Hashem decided that it is fitting, and He wants me to reflect, but out of love and with higher purpose. He cares. Even when it hurts me, He still cares, probably even more.

Today is yesterday's tomorrow.
The yetzarim a person has the most trouble dealing with are his most powerful God-given tools for developing his potential and achieving shleimus.
It doesn't matter how big the number is, only that today it is going up by one.
There is no "just" when it comes to lust.

Please feel free to reach out. I'd appreciate connecting with you (via GYE, email, or phone - whatever floats your boat)
A little about me: guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/412971-I-Want-to-Help-Others

Re: Religious pain 17 Jul 2025 19:46 #439084

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Thank you for clarifying. Ill do my best to answer shortly now and clarify later, hopefully. I never answered the question of extreme suffering. I don't know there is an answer we will be able to understand now. The "anachnu chatanu" Jewish guilt piece was what I felt bothered by and I still am bothered by. Never answered it:) With regards to galus, the Nesivos Shalom in the maamarim on Pesach says that its not that our aveiros caused the galus it's that we really needed galus to shape us. We had a few watershed moments in history, such as the meraglim and Avraham by the Bris Bein Habesarim. Those moments could have created an alternative path that wouldn't necessitate galus. But the standard in the world is galus. And now that we missed those opportunities we are in galus for alternative growth. I feel it doesn't fully answer the question, but it at least helps.
Nothing good grows in the dark. 

Re: Religious pain 18 Jul 2025 13:02 #439117

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retrych wrote on 16 Jul 2025 05:27:

bright wrote on 15 Jul 2025 18:54:

retrych wrote on 15 Jul 2025 15:57:

bright wrote on 14 Jul 2025 01:22:
. As far as your response, Rav Nissam Gaon said his vidui daily. He probably concentrated.



Which Gaon was it who did teshuvah each day for being on a somewhat lower level the day before? I'm not worried about that.

Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon
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Re: Religious pain 21 Jul 2025 18:00 #439210

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Thinking it over, it can't be that we sav chatanu so many times becuase we need to keep begging for forgiveness. We have too many sources that forgiveness for honest teshuva comes right away (A rasha who proposes al tanai hes a tzadik, teshuvah right before death, etc.) and anyway if it was a necessary component it would be part of the d'oraisa yom kippur process. 
You have to say it's for ourselves. however you explain repitiion in the rest of davening, apply it here

Re: Religious pain 21 Jul 2025 19:36 #439217

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Some might say look at the Rabbeinu Yona in Shaarei Tshuva where he says your supposed to regret your aveiros forever to get a complete tshuva...
Nothing good grows in the dark. 

Re: Religious pain 21 Jul 2025 21:36 #439224

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My understanding of Rabbeinu Yona, after learning through the Sefer a few times, is that he means it in a positive way.
along the lines of Rav Sadyaa Gaon.

Constant growth also means utilizing the lessons and galvanizing influence of past mistakes to keep getting higher and closer.  See Rabbeinu Yona’s poetic intro to the 2nd Shaar, the depth of his paragraph on Yagon, and much more. 

Although Rabbeinu Yona’s treatment of Teshuva is Charata-centric, which is backwards-facing to some extent (as opposed to the Mabits קירוב לה׳ מריחוק החטא pathway), it’s all about gaining, maintaining, and enhancing a closeness to HKBH. He uses “Yir’as Shamayim” in a very broad way throughout his seforim (esp Mishlei) - it connects to Bitachon and Romemus- and isn’t about cowering in fear. 

(the paragraphs in the third Shaar about the Yom Hamisa are designed to scare the living daylights out of the reader, and are not the theme of the rest of the Sefer )
Please feel free to reach out anytime at chaim.oigen@gmail.com

Perhaps you'd enjoy seeing Chaim's Oigen
Last Edit: 21 Jul 2025 21:51 by chaimoigen.

Re: Religious pain 22 Jul 2025 03:44 #439238

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I think that although coming from completely different angles, these two recent vayimaen videos are very helpful to what prompted this thread.

R' Yussie Zakutinsky
www.torahanytime.com/lectures/382035

and

R' Ari Bensousan
www.torahanytime.com/lectures/382827

Re: Religious pain 22 Jul 2025 14:46 #439251

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chaimoigen wrote on 21 Jul 2025 21:36:
My understanding of Rabbeinu Yona, after learning through the Sefer a few times, is that he means it in a positive way.
along the lines of Rav Sadyaa Gaon.

Constant growth also means utilizing the lessons and galvanizing influence of past mistakes to keep getting higher and closer.  See Rabbeinu Yona’s poetic intro to the 2nd Shaar, the depth of his paragraph on Yagon, and much more. 

Although Rabbeinu Yona’s treatment of Teshuva is Charata-centric, which is backwards-facing to some extent (as opposed to the Mabits קירוב לה׳ מריחוק החטא pathway), it’s all about gaining, maintaining, and enhancing a closeness to HKBH. He uses “Yir’as Shamayim” in a very broad way throughout his seforim (esp Mishlei) - it connects to Bitachon and Romemus- and isn’t about cowering in fear. 

(the paragraphs in the third Shaar about the Yom Hamisa are designed to scare the living daylights out of the reader, and are not the theme of the rest of the Sefer )

This is the fascinating piece. I have learned Shaarei tshuva quite a few times. Ive always found it to be extreme and unforgiving. Maybe something for the level of the Rishonim, certainly not us. Other Sifrei RY were much more on the level for me such as pirkei avos and mishlei. Legend has it that he indeed wrote it for himself....Yet R CO learned the exact same Sefer with a radically different maskana... This is precisely the paradox were facing.
Nothing good grows in the dark. 

Re: Religious pain 23 Jul 2025 12:26 #439299

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I can very much relate to the pain of all our nation's suffering being our fault, and that it feels like there's constant criticism. This was the strongest for me during my (many) struggles with depression. I'm on the other side now bH (hopefully for good, with Hashem's help!), and it bothers me less.
That's one part of it - when dealing with depression, it colors my view and everything and tilts it in a negative way, and there's nothing anyone can tell me to change it.
But on the other hand, even without the depression, there is something of a negative view itself, and I want to address it. I'm actually going to switch over to what's coming up soon (it surely will be coming up on this thread at that time), the days of teshuva (some people here referenced teshuva), as a way of explaining.
During the days of selichos and then on Yom Kippur, in davening we talk repeatedly about how bad we've been and how many mistakes we have made. I would always get the feeling that we're so negative and terrible and Hashem is so mad at us (c"v) and we're just coming so maybe He won't zap us so hard.
But in reality, which I can only see years later with much thought and will being free from the "depressed mind," the focus of these days is that we are in middle of a job - we're trying to clean ourselves off. So of course our focus is on admitting our wrongs and doing teshuva. But we are not saying that we are an overall bad person. We are just focused on cleaning off our wrongs -- not on judging where we are overall. So the focus will temporarily be on the negative, of course. But we must remember that we are not saying we are overall bad, but rather are focused on repenting our sins, so we are talking about those sins. (Obviously, lots more to talk about on this subject and other ideas on it, which I'm sure we'll get to in Elul.)
Let's bring that back to our topic of focusing in davening about all the tragedies happening because of our sins. Again, I don't think this answer will be so helpful to someone whose mind is "tilted" by depression (maybe a little bit), but it is helpful for others to understand.
The truth is that Hashem loves us very much. He is looking only for our benefit, and He even is very proud of our nation overall, for all we've been through and still 3300+ years later we are keeping the Torah, and if you're not sure, just contrast us with the goyim for a minute.
But at the same time, Hashem does have a goal for us, that we accomplish the point of the world and be successful, and be rewarded in this world and the next. So if we miss the boat in certain ways on certain aveiros, there could be punishment (c"v). But it doesn't mean Hashem is looking at us overall negatively or rejecting or hating us or fuming at us. It's hard to see at the moment, because when being punished and suffering, that's what it looks like. But it is the opposite, that He does look well at us overall even at these times (not sure if that's so at a time when everyone goes off the derech, but at the other times at least), and He still loves us and even thinks highly of us even at these times.
There's a lot more to say. And one more point I want to make, about the attitude of the yeshivos in Europe. But this way long enough, and I didn't write so clearly, and there's already a lot to discuss for today. Maybe tomorrow or Friday I'll get back with the piece about the yeshivos in Europe.
In the place where ba’alei teshuva stand, even pure tzaddikim who never sinned cannot stand. (Rabbi Avohu, Brachos 34b)

Great free resources:
My favorite book for breaking free: The Battle of the Generation 
https://guardyoureyes.com/ebooks/item/the-battle-of-the-generation. Change your attitude and change your life!

Rabbi Shafier's incredible lectures on breaking free: The Fight. Download here: 
https://theshmuz.com/series/the-fight/

If you're only ready to try something very small (recently updated and PDF available):
https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/4-On-the-Way-to-90-Days/378128-Captain—Shtarkemotionals-Secret90Day-Challenge

Re: Religious pain 23 Jul 2025 13:33 #439308

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Beautiful thought, Captain.

I think many of us recovering from pornography or other sexual attachments can relate to this in a strong way. Pornography, masturbation, etc. are poison. But I'm a good guy who struggles with consuming attractive looking poison. The fact that I'm a good guy doesn't make unhealthy sexual behaviors good. 

The same with Teshuva. Chet is disgusting, poisonous, horrible, etc. But WE'RE not..... See the peirush Hagra on Shir Hashirim on the Passuk אל תראוני שאני שחרחורת ששזפתני השמש. Were beautiful, although we're covered in grime................................ 
We're in this struggle together; feel free to reach out! 
My email is currently down, and I don't have access to it right now. 

Feel free to call/text! (908) 251-9590 (google)

Check out my thread here: guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/413043-My-ENTIRE-story#413043

Re: Religious pain 24 Jul 2025 04:01 #439346

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Great stuff...
Nothing good grows in the dark. 

Re: Religious pain 24 Jul 2025 12:08 #439357

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Sorry, don't have time to write about the Europe stuff today. Hopefully tomorrow.
In the place where ba’alei teshuva stand, even pure tzaddikim who never sinned cannot stand. (Rabbi Avohu, Brachos 34b)

Great free resources:
My favorite book for breaking free: The Battle of the Generation 
https://guardyoureyes.com/ebooks/item/the-battle-of-the-generation. Change your attitude and change your life!

Rabbi Shafier's incredible lectures on breaking free: The Fight. Download here: 
https://theshmuz.com/series/the-fight/

If you're only ready to try something very small (recently updated and PDF available):
https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/4-On-the-Way-to-90-Days/378128-Captain—Shtarkemotionals-Secret90Day-Challenge

Re: Religious pain 25 Jul 2025 12:41 #439414

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I decided that it is too dangerous to post the stuff about European yeshivas in a public setting, as it could be misunderstood. But if anyone suffers with religious pain and feels like this might be relevant for their healing, they should PM me and I will send them my original post on this.
In the place where ba’alei teshuva stand, even pure tzaddikim who never sinned cannot stand. (Rabbi Avohu, Brachos 34b)

Great free resources:
My favorite book for breaking free: The Battle of the Generation 
https://guardyoureyes.com/ebooks/item/the-battle-of-the-generation. Change your attitude and change your life!

Rabbi Shafier's incredible lectures on breaking free: The Fight. Download here: 
https://theshmuz.com/series/the-fight/

If you're only ready to try something very small (recently updated and PDF available):
https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/4-On-the-Way-to-90-Days/378128-Captain—Shtarkemotionals-Secret90Day-Challenge
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