Dear Rabbi CO, 
Wow!
You nailed it! drop the mike, walk off stage.  

You wrote so eloquently and clarified things in a way that I feel like Yehuda veod likra. But I think you deserve a solid reply, so I'll do my best.
גם אני מצטרף לכל הנ"ל. I was definitely affected by my own perceptions, and honestly, regardless of the validity, screaming at "the system" isn’t helpful. Not even a little.

In my case, it’s almost always about personal stories, things that happened to me. Maybe they were inexcusable, but it’s not necessarily the system’s fault. That outlook, blaming the entire system, is unhealthy and damaging. It turns into a grudge that will never find resolution. Like R’ C.O. said: what system do I want in place? If someone is in a position to create actual change, that’s a conversation for another time. But my message has always been, and will always be, about the klal, about what we can do to add, not to complain about what went wrong for me.

(Taanos are for beis din, not forums…)

This is an area that, to my great pain, there’s no system for. It’s outside the scope of regular therapy, and it's outside the scope of what the Yeshiva system can provide. That’s why we’re seeing heilige neshamos crying out in heart-wrenching pain… and no one is answering.

That said, I once had an image pop into my mind of a very chashuve Rav getting up and saying: “The system is amazing. We have a 90% success rate. What system do you know that works that well?”

Aside from being logically flawed, that’s deeply invalidating. I suffered in your successful system. Don’t parade it in front of my face.

Still, like R’ C.O. said, when we’re dealing with a yachid, we can and must empathize with his pain, even if that includes his hatred for the system. Because in a very real way, it failed him on a personal level, and that is not okay. (Maybe, over time, we can help him shift the blame from "the system" to the individual perpetrator, but that’s a delicate matter, and one for experts.)

Objectively, we can also recognize that his story doesn’t reflect everyone’s story. It doesn’t mean we have to burn everything down.

What can we do?

We can add a little more light to our world like y'all are doing, especially R CO, and hope it spreads faster than Covid.

bright wrote on 23 Jun 2025 19:22:

Great points. 
I think place like GYE show us the way. Where Yiden from all walks of life can come and talk about a very taboo subject and have so much acceptance and love directed at them. This is how real Ahaves Yisroel should look like. Caring for another Yid, just because he is a Yid and holy. 
Love him and show him the way to greatness. 

Im confused by this. Why is it not okay that someone was failed? Who is expecting the world to be perfect? If the world isnt perfect, there are going to be a certain amount of people who get hurt in many ways. It hurts terribly, but I dont see how its wrong. Hashem doest expect of anyone to be perfect. He has angels for that. This world is the last place for anything to be perfect. 

Furthermore, what use is there in blaming the individual perpetrator, presuming there really is someone to blame? Why is he more to blame than the system that enabled him? Why presume he acted with malice or that his actions were not a result of his own chinuch? Blaming is a natural response. However, staying with it and not moving on perpetuates the victim perspective and makes it harder for one to slowly integrate a Emuna perspective where one tries to understand and integrate the knowledge of and belief in the Divine providence orchestrating his personal mission that included him going through that pain, however it came about.

this subject really fascinates me, both on a program level and on a personal level.
In a program level, I see the aforementioned situation by many
on a personal level because of my position with countless bochurm.

the truth is that the given in SA is to have those preconceived notions and attitudes, - why I don't know.

how many people are suffering this way? how can we identify them? what went wrong in the system?

when my sponsor asked me in step 2 to describe my g-d and I told them 'he's all loving and powerful, and even when he 'punishes' me its for my best because he loves me to bits and only hs my best interest in mind' - they said that it sounds like i'm quoting some mussar sefer, and wasn't sure i relay felt that way.
I do hope that I feel that way, but irrespectively even if that it is just what I was taught and therefore parroting it, it seems that the problem isn't in the chinuch system.
Rather somewhere in our suffering brains we tell ourselves a lie of a punishing devil who hates us

Would love to be enlightened further
thank you for bringing this up

Dear R' CO,
Beautiful.

I'm speechless.

alex94 wrote on 23 Jun 2025 21:37:

Important points--answering each paragraph separately, to the best of my ability:
1) 100%, there are going to be a certain amount of people who get hurt in many ways--but that hurt shouldn't come as the result of the actions of another Yid. There are many causes of pain and hurt, but the actions of another Jew shouldn't be one of them. That's what makes it not OK. We're in גלות. Pain is everywhere. But it should never be the result of another Yid's actions. That's exactly the point--that nobody expects the world to be perfect. Suffering is in so many places (לא עלינו), so the least we could do is try to make sure that we aren't causing any of that suffering ourselves. Hashem doesn't expect anyone to be perfect, but He does expect us not to bring pain on others.
2) I understood Bright to be discussing circumstances/instances where the individual's actions were inexcusable and beyond the pale, to the point that whether his actions were the result of his own malice/cruelty or of his upbringing/Chinuch becomes irrelevant. (To clarify: This is akin to the infamous debate regarding terrorists raised by terrorists: are they evil in and of themselves? They've never had a chance to think differently, after all--from the second they were born, they were taught "Jews are the enemy, they're evil, kill as many as possible", and had a gun put in their hands at 3 years old so they could start "training". The answer: Yes, of course they're evil. You may be right that they never had a remote possibility of thinking differently. Who cares?!?! Whether it's their fault or not is an irrelevant philosophical discussion. A murderous terrorist is evil, regardless of whether it ever had a moment's exposure to thinking differently or not.)
להבדיל אלף אלפי הבדלים (obviously), there are circumstances where an individual inflicting pain on another is inexcusable, regardless of whether his actions were borne of his own malice or not. (Obviously, there are גדרים for this level, but I'd like to think most have the שכל to know them.) I understood Bright to be talking about such cases.
With that in mind, to address the last point: Yes, 100%--like you said, the לכתחילה response is to realize that everything that happens, even a cause of pain, is from Hashem, that nothing happens in this world that is not כרצונו. But I think we're talking "blame" in the figurative sense-that is, directing responsibility, not holding accountability for consequences. Every person has בחירה. The pain didn't have to come to that individual through them. A person is still to blame (not the same thing as "blaming") for their actions. Of course the individual should internalize the point Alex spoke out--this pain was best for them, even if they don't understand how. כל מה דעביד רחמנא לטב עביד. That is the core of Emunah. But the person who inflicted the pain is still responsible for his actions, to the point that the system/מוסד/institution should ascertain that the person won't (or, depending on the instance at hand, can't) repeat said actions.

fighterwithfire wrote on 26 Jun 2025 09:09:

a. I cant agree with this distinction existing because it would be crushingly self implicating.
b. None of these distinctions change the basic calculus of victim vs empowered perspective, regardless of emotional baggage. If I live thinking things werent ok, im stuck. If I live thinking things were painful, yet they happened for a reason, i can move forward. This is independent of the important avoda of giving emotions their space and respect.

alex94 wrote on 26 Jun 2025 10:46:

A. I hear you. But I do feel that "horror stories" we think about when discussing abuse or trauma in the system call for this distinction. 
B. Completely agreed. That's the point I was trying to make in the last paragraph (not very clearly on my part), with the added caveat that I think that should be Step 2: First see if the affected individual can agree that it wasn't the system at fault, rather an individual in the system, then move on to the next step of empowerment--yes, painful as hell, but happened for a reason, and I'm going to grow from it. (As for why not apply that second step right away: In my extremely limited experience (which should always stay that way!), it's even harder to let go of anger/blame at a system or group than it is towards an individual, as the former can lead to an anger at everything "the system" represents in the victim's mind. In this case, Yiddishkeit, חלילה.)

Not everything can be viewed through an objective lens. When someone causes you pain, your subjective experience of hurt and anger remains valid, even while acknowledging that Hashem governs the world and everything ultimately serves His purposes. The pain doesn't cease to exist simply because we understand divine providence.

The Chinuch explains that we consider Hashem's perspective specifically when it comes to taking revenge, recognizing that Hashem decreed the circumstances. Yet even this approach has its limits. Feeling hurt, harboring resentment, or being unwilling to forgive remains natural and permissible. The Torah itself demonstrates this by requiring the offender to seek forgiveness before Hashem grants divine forgiveness.

The halachic sources provide minimal obligation regarding forgiveness. The closest the poskim come to requiring forgiveness is the principle of "lo yehe achzari mlimchol", don't be cruel in withholding forgiveness, and this applies only after the offender has asked for forgiveness (though the exact number of required requests remains debated). Without such a request for forgiveness or efforts to rectify the harm, there exists no compelling obligation to forgive.

Even the concept of lifnim mishuras hadin, in the context of "lmi nose avon, lmi sheovar al pesha" is not clear to me whether it applies without bakashas mechila. The mashmuos of tefilla zaka may represent a different situation this is not the place for it.

Rabbeinu Bachya famously asserts that Yosef never forgave his brothers. While we cannot fully comprehend Yosef's spiritual level, this teaches us that forgiveness is not obligatory. We can learn from his example that withholding forgiveness, under certain circumstances, remains within acceptable bounds.

There exists a fundamental misconception about Hashem's relationship to our suffering—the mistaken belief that He disregards our feelings because, from His infinite perspective, our troubles appear trivial. This understanding couldn't be further from the truth.

Consider that we don't recite "shehasimcha bimeono" at a bris specifically because of the baby's pain. We don't dismiss this suffering by saying, "It's worth it, just a small amount of pain for a bris. He's only a baby who doesn't understand, so his pain is meaningless." On the contrary, the Sefarim Hakdoshim teach that many harsh decrees are torn up because of a baby's cry.

This demonstrates that Hashem values and responds to our pain, regardless of how insignificant it might appear from a cosmic perspective. Our feelings matter deeply in the divine economy, and acknowledging this truth allows us to approach questions of forgiveness with both compassion and appropriate boundaries.

Well said 
And don't forget the Gemora in Yoma about a תלמיד חכם שאינו נוקם ונוטר כנחש, which one could seemingly deduce from there that their are instances they the pain is more than justified.

אע"פ שלכאורה הביאור הוא דוקא עניין של כבודו של תורה ושל מקום, שת"ח איני יכול למחול על זה, מ''מ ייתכן לומר שמהא גופא חזינן דפגיעה הפוגעת בכבודו של מקום מחייבת נקימה ונטירה, ונידון דנן חד הוא.

I'll leave it the Talmidei Chachamim of GYE,  to say pshat in the Gemora 

First of all I respect all here and I appreciate the topic.
I get that anyone suffering trauma and doesn't want to forgive shouldn't be judged.
No compelling obligation? Nu nu. I think there is a compelling reason and argument.
What is tefillas zakah about? Dont we ask straight out that Hashem should put it into the hearts of those we have wronged to forgive us - is that talking only if you asked them forgivness (Hold on guys, pause the davening I gotta go ask, aww shucks he lives chutz l'tchum...) ? And that we forgive everyone as well - only if they asked us forgivness!? 

Forget that.
Dont we say (at least some of us anyway, I wish I was one of them:wink:), the tefillah of ribono shel olam I am mochel each night to forgive anyone and everyone...who here has a nightly line of the people waiting to ask forgivness????
A holy wise jew once told me that when someone wrongs someone that is "himmel zachen", even though we are perplexed by bechira, no one can harm you, it's all Hashem's plan. If the fellow is a bona fide rasha, that is a different story, 'באבד רשעים רנה, אהבי ד' שנעו רע וכו...but most Jews are not like that even if they do very wrong things. (eh...like me, why else am I here...)
Im not saying it's easy or hard or what not.

The parsha of Yosef is a difficult parsha to say the least and it's very difficult to say that the same Yosef who said that the shevatim didnt do this, Hashem did this, and pacified the shevatim(!) Also at the same time never forgave them. I was always taught, and I believe there are strong sources for this, I apologize I don't have them offhand, that because Yosef didn't say with words I AM MOCHEL YOU - that is why we still suffer from that חטא. (Hence why many people are particular to get an explicit, verbal, forgivness) But It could be it was overlooked then that such a detail was imperitive. I dont believe there is any proof from Yosef to our discussion in reagrds to whether one should find it in his heart to forgive.
Regarding a Talmid Chochom, the pshat (IMHO) seems to be (פשוט) like the first pshat mentioned above - davka a ת"ח and davka because of k'vod hatorah. That's for sure the pushut pshat, remember we are talking about a massive shift l'massah (at least in perspective) you need a solid ראיה להפך. 
With all due respect and admiration (there really are special people here and also people that suffered alot) there definetely is a compelling argument, and although that might have not been the focus of the discussion, I think it should be brought to the table.
Matter of fact I think it's the objective truth, dare I say obvious, and it's just hard. It's more based on how far from a person's personal pain and trauma he has come and risen above. How far he is connected that it's all Hashem and everyone is puppets! (No offense of course, we all are puppets in that sense )
Love you all. 
P.S. Yes, I suffered trauma (as I think I mentioned) from the system, yes I was hurt by others in what I thought was in a thoughtless and coming out to be in a cruel manner, and yes I stand by what I said 1000%! 
Sorry, Im just a small fry, with my own trauma, but I think it is helpful to recognize the truth...when we will be holding there is different but at least we have the proper goal posts so we can say that we are trying.
Most importantly.
I believe the health and recovery that one attains when he reaches a state of acceptance in Hashem's ways and total loving reliance on him, including forgiving those that wronged him...I think that that stage is bliss. And we should at least aspire to that bliss.

The Issur of לא תשנא את אחיך לבבך would seemingly imply that the הנהגה your referring to is somewhat of a Darga, and not necessarily demanded of the המון עם. 

But I may be totally wrong in my understanding. 

Forgiving someone for the wrong he has done to us doesn't take away from the fact that what he has done is wrong and we should still label it as wrong. Also, although perhaps we should forgive someone who hurt us physically, emotionally or financially (after he paid), I am not sure that it applies to someone who hurt us spiritually.

Trauma and abuse doesn't seem to be the topic of discussion but since you brought it up I heard from someone who was sexually abused that he received a psak that he isn't obligated to forgive. I wonder whether this holds true for everyone who was sexually abused and whether it also holds true for those who were physically abused.

According to psychologytoday.com psychologists tell their clients who were abused that they aren't obligated to forgive. Psychologists also say that it causes a lot of harm when people push those who were abused to forgive when they aren't at a stage where they are capable of forgiving. Psychologists will suggest forgiveness at a late stage of therapy if and when it is feasible.

I also don't know of an obligation to forgive someone who didn't ask for forgiveness but there seems to be a source to go over to the person who hurt you and tell him that you were hurt so that he can ask for forgiveness. Obviously, this would only be in a case where there is a chance that he will regret what he did and he will have true remorse. It definitely wouldn't apply in a case where you would get hurt even more by talking to him. in my experience, abusers are in denial of their actions let alone to have them admit that their actions were hurtful to others and they were wrong.

I agree with everything ChaimOigen wrote about the system. I also believe there are more things at play in many cases that the system failed than the system itself. I am not taking responsibility off of the system but what I am saying is that you have to look into every failure of the system, and look at all the components that were at play so that you can get a full picture. Sometimes there are people aside for the educators that are at fault when a child gets hurt in the system. Sometimes it can be parents. Sometimes it can be a third party that interacted with the child the wrong way. Sometimes it can be that a child was placed in the wrong school. Even when it is the system it is usually an educator or principal who did a poor job and not a general problem with the system.

When I was in school, both in elementary school and Beis Hamedrash it felt like the principal and Mashgiach were out to get me. There were only a few Rebbes in elementary school that showed me that they cared about me and in high school and Beis Hamedrash none of the Rebbies showed me that they cared. I was a very sensitive child so this made a great impact on my personality. Perhaps I should have went to different schools where they give personal attention but then I might not have grown up as strong in Yiddishkeit as I did. My father beat me until I was 15 years old. I could have easily ended up thinking that Hashem was out there to get me but for some reason it didn't happen. For some reason I grew up believing that Hashem loved me, perhaps because of the love I received from my mother, or perhaps because of the mercy and compassion I had for others.

I heard from someone professional that the relationship a person has with Hashem is usually based on the relationship he has with his father. For some reason what my father did hasn't affected my relationship with Hashem but when someone feels that Hashem is out there to get him it would be worthwhile for him to check his relationship with his father. Of course someone could have the inverse of my experience where the father is a wonderful person and the child still feels that Hashem is out there to get him. My point is just that it can sometimes be because of the father and not because of the system.

SisonYishecha wrote on 01 Jul 2025 03:04:

3 comments:

1 - I think that there is a machlokes Rishonim if the issur of Lo Sisna is only "bilvuvecha"
2 - Regardless, the mitzva of v'uhavta takes out some of the punch of your comment, no?
3 - The "bilvuvecha" aspect would require the wronged party to confront the one who caused him pain, no?