Workingguy wrote on 29 May 2017 17:27:

I think you are missing the point of 'the program'.
The program of recovery has nothing to do with any promises that any man can give another man.
The 12 step program of recovery is about "shivisi Hashem L'Negdi Tamid"
I have no issues with the concept of promising any human being in this world that if they have The Ribono Shel Olam in their lives at all times then they will know happiness and serenity. I have seen it with my own eyes having had the schoot to be in the presence of real tzaddikim.

bear wrote on 30 May 2017 03:03:

Lot of truth in what you wrote here. "Rock bottom" is not a replacement for avodas Hashem. Unfortunately some people are ill and need rock bottom to recover. Healthy people deal with yetzer hora and avodas Hashem. There is a lot of gray area, so for some a mixture of both works. Continued success. 

Hi Bear,

I totally relate to your post and have had similar thoughts of 'regret' after having gone through high school and university and never seriously become involved with girls even though many now 'choshuv' friends did   . It was down to a mixture of shyness and not wanting to be seen as going 'off the d' but I always thought 'what if', 'what a waste of my good looking years', 'I wish I had experienced that life before I got married' and even getting jelous when with old friends who are laughing about their adventures 'back in the day' on that crazy guys holiday (which I never joined) and wearing their experiences as a badge of honour. 

I can however give you chizuk from this as I can confidently say that if I would have indulged in the above way when I was younger, I would not have married the woman of my dreams I have today (I did well for myself In all departments!). The way we ended up getting engaged was a result of me being exactly where I was in life at the time and the suggestion was made at a mamish 'coincidental' moment. On top of that, she has told me that she would have found it difficult to live with a husband who has history; who knows what goes on behind closed doors with the high school 'chillers' we used to envy?Food for thought; what would keep you up at night more-a) regrets over not having 'lived the life' in high school but marry a great girl with no history or b) having 'lived the life' in high school but marry a wife who has been with other men. I'm not inferring that these are 2 natural paths but I believe that Hashem balances everything out in the long term in one way or another.I also work with goyim who live life 'to the max' and they are mostly 100% unhappy and unfulfilled. I am on here because I still sometimes watch porn and am trying to break free but is this a result of 'missing out'? I highly doubt it. To summarise:

its better to peak after high school!

Let me know your thoughts. 
​

GrowStrong wrote on 30 May 2017 10:20:

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. While I know the program is supposed to be a spiritual program and am well aware that it works for many, what you described is something that takes a lifetime of work. Yet, people who work the program find the benefits very quickly. In Musar and Avodas HaShem, it takes a long time. 

And in our religion, we don't even believe that there is one path of avodas HaShem that will bring people to that Shivisi that you've described. So learning mesilas yesharim doesn't work for everyone, learning Rambam doesn't work for everyone, and learning Ohr Yisrael doesn't work for everyone- no matter how hard they work it.

Yet somehow this is the secret to Shivisi HaShem and HaShem is promising it? I just don't think so.

that doesn't take away from the fact that it works for so many people, or my admiration for those who are able to work it, or it for many of the spiritual principles that I do think have a lot to offer.

Dailybattle wrote on 30 May 2017 14:38:

Thanks Dailybattle. I hear your point. A wife with a history would probably keep me up at night much more. I do agree that I do not think if I hung out with girls in high school I would of got it out of my system. 
Though, I do sometimes wonder what would of been better watching all the stuff I did in High school online, or hanging out with girls instead. Neither one is a good thing, but I do wonder witch would of had worse effects in the long run.

bear wrote on 30 May 2017 18:23:

Glad we worked this one out

Workingguy wrote on 30 May 2017 17:33:


Found on the web:

I gave some more thought to the issue, here is what I have to add. 
In response to feelings of "I missed out" and " I am missing out":

First off, the thought of "I missed out" (in the past) is, simply put, ludicrous. Mai de'hava hava. In regards to things that happened in the past there are those that still have an effect now, in the present, and those that do not. For example if I got a car years ago, if I still have the car than I am still receiving benefit from the car. Or say I took an EMT course, even after the course is long over I still benefit from it, because I know now how to save a life. On the other hand some things from the past have no relevance to my present condition. For example if last night instead of having a regular dinner I went to a five star restaurant, true while I was eating the delicacies I would be enjoying. But the next day I receive no more benefit from the fancy restaurant than I would have had, had I just had a regular dinner. The same thing is true in regards to hanging out with girls in the past. Had I done it, true in the moment I would of had a great time, but right now after the time has passed, I would receive no benefit from it. And the truth is, if there would be any current effect, it would probably be negative. So I am now perplexed, am I insane? I have spent so much time wishing I could change things in my past, that would have absolutely no beneficial effect now. I have been jealous of people who have done stuff in their past. Am I crazy? The stuff I am jealous of gives these people nothing in the current moment over me. If it is not bad enough that I have regretted not doing things in the past that have no good effect now, I have soured, spoiled, and wasted the present moment with these thoughts. I took the present moment, an opportunity to do with it so many things, and turned it into a moment of depression, eulogy, and mourning. Pathetic! My desires had literally destroyed my sanity. "Desire can take one out of the world".

Now in regards to both the feelings of "I missed out" and "I am missing out". I think what I have to keep in mind is the first Mishna in the second Perek of Avos. I have to evaluate the loss of a Mitzva compared to its reward; and the reward of a sin compared to its loss. Right now, if I would go and do all the stuff. Ya, I would have a great time. But the feeling would only be while I am playing the game. The next day all the enjoyment belongs to the past. What I take with me, is more negative habits I am going to have to get in control of. And to be honest, my plate is more than full with bad habits I need to kick, I really do not need any more. It also can have negative effects on my future marriage, and many many other aspects of my life(would write more but gatta go to bed). And of course the repercussions for these actions will be eternal at the end of days. On the other hand if I control myself and miss out on the temporary pleasure, not only will I bear the fruits for eternity at the end of days. I will even save myself a huge headache, and receive benefits in this world(would elaborate but gatta go to bed). So in conclusion, it is plain and simply not worth it, and I should not feel "I missed out" or "I am missing out". I can not let my desires take me out of the world. 

Also to acknowledge, I am being pretty hypocritical.  My last couple posts make me out to be one who was clean during high school. While in reality the reason I am on GYE and have certain issues was because I was far from clean during high school. 

Unless somehow prn used to be Mutter. 

You couldn't have put it over better bear, thanks for the words of truth; much chizuk and hisoirirushas been gleaned from your post!

Hatzlocho

GrowStrong wrote on 31 May 2017 21:05:

I know it well; it's the first piece in Kovetz Ma'amarim and it's fascinating. I'm not going to continue the discussion, because at this point I think it won't help, but I'll say that I've learned that piece and taught that piece many times and it doesn't fundamentally change what I'm saying. But let's leave it at that because I have no desire to argue against something that works for people in a place where academic conversations aren't really the purpose. 

Well here goes. This really sucks but I fell... again.
Could be triggered by stress, or just lost my motivation but either way it really sucks. 

Not sure if this is me trying to pretend the fall was not so bad, or if this is actually a real sign for hope. in my fall i did not look at anything very graphic. I searched google images(did not use sketchy words because then it would be blocked and reported) and spent 15-30 minutes looking at definitely not the most modest pics in the world but also not the worst. I pulled myself together after those 15-30 minutes and did not go on to looking at worse things. In the past after a fall I would spend hours, days, and week before I restarted my progress. I dont know what to make of this. It could just be since my fall was closer to a slip than a week long fall, i do not feel so guilty about it, and that makes it easer to pull myself back together, because i fell i did not blow my steak.
is this a sign of progress, or me just trying to fell better about myself?

bear wrote on 06 Jun 2017 03:26:

Are you sure what you did is a fall?

Workingguy wrote on 07 Jun 2017 00:03:

Not 100% but I figured good chance it is, and even if it is not I think it would be beneficial to count as a fall in order to discourage me from doing it again. I am not saying every time I slip I will count it as a fall, but if I go looking for stuff, and see stuff I should not. maybe it will be a good idea to count as fall.

A lot of good happening right now. But at the same time dealing with anger, frustration, and stress for something else. These negative emotions are big triggers for me. Posting now to try to calm myself. 

Anger and Frustration:
When I get in fights the anger tempts me. For two reasons A. to tame the emotions and B. to try to stick it to the person. Have to remember in the short term watching may appease my emotions but in the long term it will only make it worse. And watching will not hurt the person. The only person it will hurt is me. If I am frustrated that something did not work out, if work can be done to fix it, than do that work. Watching will make me less likely to succeed. And if it is too late to do anything about it, watching will only make me more frustrated and more problems. Find a better outlet instead. 

Stress:
This is also a BIG trigger. If I am stressed about  something I need take care of, just take care of it, than I could breath much easier. If it is just I need to relax and clear my mind. Than find a better outlet. After all watching will only cause more stress.