Hi Sleepy

Thanks for all the replies, but you're taking up a lot of space on my thread with all those quotes ;-)

I do not recall where i saw this, but there was a survey done of American men, and an extremely high percentage of the responders reported feeling depressed after masturbating or having what they termed "selfish sex".  I think the explanation for that is that human being is in touch to a degree with their nefesh. Therefore after masturbation or self pleasing sex, when all that energy, focus, passion, imagination, and of course zera, go to waste, one is simply left feeling empty. Similar to a caterer that cooks up a banquet and then in a moment of anger throws it all out.  Sexuality was put in this world to procreate the next generation and as a vehicle of celebrating intimacy with a spouse that one loves (this is a purpose in and of itself even when one is avoiding pregnancy due to age, health, etc.). Masturbation and pornographic style sex (where birth control is used indiscriminately and there is no connection being sought)) accomplish neither of the two - leaving one feeling wasted.

Hashem Help Me wrote on 20 Jan 2022 12:32:

Very well said.

We can debate some nuances (e.g. what the Nefesh is) but the overall argument is something I would strongly agree with. 

Hence my original post and my stressing the respect I have for you :-)

bego wrote on 20 Jan 2022 14:22:

to quote medical news: Some people believe that masturbation can cause mental health issues, but this is an outdated idea that researchers have long since disproven. On the other hand, having depression can affect how a person feels about masturbation and sex. Masturbation does not cause depression. It is a natural, pleasurable activity that may boost self-esteem and help a person explore their sexuality. That said, some people who masturbate do feel guilty or anxious about it. Historically, masturbation has been a social taboo.

And from healthline: Masturbation is a healthy, normal sexual activity. Many people masturbate regularly for pleasure, for sexual exploration, or for fun. Masturbation has many positive benefits including stress relief, better mood, and greater relaxation. But masturbation is sometimes associated with guilt and depression. That isn’t because masturbation causes depression. Instead, it’s likely because religious and cultural traditions sometimes associate self-pleasure and masturbation with feelings such as shame and sin.

Trouble wrote on 20 Jan 2022 14:30:

Fair arguments. Hard to know cause and consequence. 

So if it's consequence

If we take a Jewish (or likely any religious) viewpoint, we say it is bad (very generic I know, but it will do) hence we try to abstain and hence we associate the bad feelings with it.

If not religious, you would be saying it is merely a remnant of past religious feelings. 

Interesting. 

​Yet I'm not sure. When a person disappears into his imagination (a large part of it), that isn't healthy. Masturbation ITSELF might be harmless (probably is to be honest) but the psychological impact seems to me not to be. Meaning, is it inherently selfish? Does thinking about naked women make me turn them into sex objects (YES!)? Do I become lost in the fake world and lose touch (pardon the pun) with the real world. I reckon yes. 

But lot's to think about. 

bego wrote on 20 Jan 2022 14:48:

you have your lines in the sand (no machshavah conversations); i have mine (as i'm actually resting on one of the tall and twisted limestone formations on the nauru anabare beach with its white sand); i don't discuss women as objects.

Modern phsycology also holds that the idea that men aren't women and vice versa is "An outdated idea that researchers have long since disproven". Much of modern gender and sexual theory is massively twisted by political correctness.

That's why rapid onset gender dysphoria is no longer classified as a disorder.

To put this in perspective, the non-jewish world which thinks that some of the worst content in the world can just be relabelled "adult" and it will be fine and who think that every fact that gets in the way of their pursuit of pleasure are not really the people to ask whether something is good for you. Hashem made the world with torah and if He says that its not good for you then a difference in perception is a problem in perception not in Hashem's truth. It is not good for you.

Goldfish wrote on 20 Jan 2022 17:41:

sorry, i have no idea what you're talking about, but thank you for responding. should a non-jew be careful not to consume blood, shrimp and pork? should a non-jew refrain from working on shabbos? should a non-jew be careful not to slaughter a mother and its kid on the same day?

They don't have to. But one of the 7 commandments in zenus and its a machlokes haposkim what that includes. However, I wasn't referring to that element of it. I meant to say that for thousands of years all humans instictively understood that some things were wrong because of the morality implanted in them by Hashem. In the last 60-70 years especially though, the liberals, who wanted nothing more than a pursuit of pleasure at all costs, just shoved to the side every bit of morality. Homosexuality, Transvestism, Free sex etc are not wrong only because the Torah says so. Their pursuit is against the whole purpose of the world and is intrisincally immoral. I don't want to get into a debate and I'm not saying "קבלו דעתי" I was just presenting my view on the matter.

Goldfish wrote on 20 Jan 2022 18:01:

you are correct about the above, but it is a jump and a stretch to compare homosexuality with masturbation.

Trouble wrote on 20 Jan 2022 18:09:

It was classified as a mental disorder until the 70s

jackthejew wrote on 20 Jan 2022 18:24:

kindly back that up please (and clarify if you are referring to compulsive masturbation, which has not been the discussion above).

Trouble wrote on 20 Jan 2022 18:28:

Sorry, that was ambiguous. I meant homeosexuality