Take it day by day.
Counting can motivate some people in the short term.
But it sets me up for a fall...I stay clean until a certain day then go into free fall!
It is like I reward myself for staying clean for a certain number of days.

Staying clean is for every day, not just until a certain target day.

i dont think I was ever that disciplined to be able to make a goal of staing clean a certain perioud of time and then alloweing myself to binge.. if I have porn in front of me.. I just binge. 

Ok so just some thoughts... I was chatting with someone today and remembered this. In the past I used to suffer from depression. I got started taking anti-depressants and once I did I found that my focus on ruchniyus shifted. I didn't need God as much- I wasn't s broken so I didn't have that yearning. Anyhow, of course that was just transitioning from a narrow and self serving relationsip with God to onw which became more real and right. But that memory cme up today so I'm posting it. I think it is pretty common and happens to a lot of guys around here. 

So this is out of left field on my thread. But relates to conversations I was having with someone offline. it is not a theoretical question. It is actually quite lmasseh. 

I am sick with an illness called addiction.

Jews can not waste seed or watch porn.

I dont have the keilim as a Jew to hold back on that because I am sick.

Just like Jews must wear tefilin. And people with no arms can not be punished for not wearing tefilin because they don't have the keilim to fulfill that mitzva, I feel I am also not punished or guilty perse for acting out. I may be guilty for putting myself into situations where I know I will act out. But of the actual viewing of porn and masturbating I don't feel guilt. 

That comparison is not the greatest, as it refers to an aseh, whereas acting out is a lo saase. So in religious terms that may not add up entirely.

Toward that end, I have come to believe that I am shoteh with regard to lust and acting out. A shoteh is not obligated in mitzvos. I dont have another way to put it. I am without daas when it comes to this.

I have no guilt as a Jew or at the most, minimal guilt for acting out as a Jew. I have made peace with masturbation and porn as a Jew. I do it. It's done. I go daven and learn and keep moving..

But I feel demoralized as a human. ANd for that I need to stay away from it because THAT demoralization kills me- my self esteem- my peace of mind.. That is where I hurt and where I start to hurt others. And truthfully it is not really so much masturbation that impacts me in this way. It is PORN+masturbation. That is the killer for me. Those two together are the death of my feeling like a human being. Although either one on its own is half-a-hell. And porn without masturbation is not possible in the long run for me anyhow. 

On the topic of having a relationship with someone other than my wife the logic continues. If it is not a relationship of baseless lust. But it is in the context of a thoughtful relationship it is not acting out to me.

Let's say I was not married.. would the relationship be a lustful relationship or not?

If I was seeking a prostitute to have sex with, an escort or a dancer in a bar, then yes it would be lustful no matter if I was married or not. JUst like porn is lustful wether I am married or not. Either way that act ignites my lust and circumvents my seichel. 

If imagining I was not married this relationship would not be a lustful one, then why does being married automatically make it a lustful one?
My marriage doesn't bear on the 'lust' aspect of the relationship. Rather, an extramarital relationship is wrong for other reasons apart from lust.

One reason is because it betrays the trust of my wife. Trust is part of truth, and if she trusts me it is wrong to betray that trust. The other reason it can be wrong is taht it is against halacha. But that too is not a sobriety issue for me any more than keeping shabbos is a sobriety issue. It is an unrelated, system of my religious values.

This issue is further complicated by the fact that talking to this woman right now has actually made me not want to act out for almost two months. No internal struggles, not counting, white knucking. It's not happening. 

OTR wrote on 10 Mar 2019 22:49:

I really really really like the first half.

The second half I'm not sure I understand, but let's not go there now. Is there a connection between the two halves?

Uh oh.. now I am in trouble.. or trouble is in me.. I am not sure what you mean by first half or second half. but they are definitely connected as I have all of this going on inside me right now. 

The bottom line of what I am getting at is that there is obv something wrong with having a relationship behind my wife's back. Morally, ethically, -It is a sin against my wife so to speak.

The religious parts that are wrong with it, are NOT a sin against my wife. They are a sin against God. 

Niether of these things, in my feelings are a clash with my sobriety in the way that porn is. A baseless, strictly animalistic desire with no holds barred. 

This is not to justify an affair, but to identify what I find wrong with it. At the same time, the conversation and thoughts that have come out of the relationship are helping me stay sober. My wife asked me lately, what I was doing that was making me so much calmer and relaxed. I do better with one of my problem kids... A lot is going smoother and so I am thinking out loud here in teh forum to write it down for myself.

OTR wrote on 11 Mar 2019 02:28:

Your post had two thoughts.

1. About Jewish and addiction and shoteh.

2. About affairs, escorts and marriage.

OTR wrote on 11 Mar 2019 02:28:

Why don't you tell your wife that the other woman is making you calmer?

And as soon as you do, I will tell my wife that it's the other woman who's making me excited.

And then we can both go together ourselves on a long road trip.

I have been seriously contemplating how to communicate that to my wife. Not joking. 
If I felt I had no sexual interest in this woman and that the relationship really on my end was just about sobriety.. I would probably tell my wife about it. I thinkI felt that way, but seeing it and writing it out helps me get myself celar. I appreciate the opportiunity to talk about this here... 

OTR wrote on 11 Mar 2019 02:57:

Girls are pretty and fun (when you’re not married to them) and talking to them feels nice and good. And clearly both of you have some need this is filling. But it is only because it is a man woman thing. And truthfully, in the non GYE world this kind of relationship is worse. Because people can understand that someone has animalistic desires and that they lost control and did something insane.

But a warm, thought out relationship with NO sex? That’s not an insane, out of control guy. That’s a guy who’s having an emotional affair. 

Just food for thought. Not trying to be hard on you; I think you and your honesty are both great. Just sharing how it sounds. 

I am trying to define that myself and those words did come to mind..
 Emotional affair.. That could be. And that is wrong. 

But on the other hand, since we started shmoozing I am clean and porn free pretty much for about two months. So what do I make of this? It is definitely filling a need for me that caused me to struggle for many months even after having a filter and being more or less under control with acting out.

IN any case the point of my post was NOT to say that any type of affair is ok. It is that this situation is not ticking my "I am an addict and need to workn my recovery defenses", it is ticking my - "I am a Jew and a moral human being nad this is wrong to do for other reasons" defenses.  

There is a difference. And if I had an ideal solution I would want to purge the lustful elements from this friendhisp I am having and make it only about the positives for me. I blieve that she feels the same and did not come into this wanting an affiar. Nor does she really feel it the way I do. 


(UNrelated to this part of the conversation but through writing here I have totally clarified that what kills me is porn and acting out together. Until a few months ago I was masturbating sometimes more sometimes less, but it wasn't bothering me so much.  I mean feeling I was in the throes of addiction wasn't what was happening. I wasn't falling apart inside or outside. I felt a little bad as a Jew, that's true, but as far as feeling obsessed with masturbation all day... that wasn't happening. that is a big realization for me as to what dehumanizes me and what my enemy is.

Just a round up for me. I have come to realize more clearly that what bothers me as an addict is porn more than masturbation. I don't feel out of control if I masturbate even daily. And a few months ago, I was pretty much doing that while still not feeling I was suffering in any way because I felt out of control. As a yid I felt guilty and rightly so. I did feel I needed to masturbate but it didn't debilitate me. So I was just able to live with it. 

Once porn enters the picture though it has never failed to reduce me to a zombie that literally masturbates almost non-stop every waking hour. 

This was a strong realization for me. I am not looking to rationalize or make a case for daily masturbation. That is wrong without question according to my religious beliefs. HOwever, I do feel  a sense of stability knowing that if I do masturbate it does not have to send me into a frantic panicky feeling that my world is crashing in on me. I hate that insanity. Porn though is scary to me.

I wish I could be normal and just need to stay away from porn becasuse they are assur and not because I am unable to control it.

OTR wrote on 24 Mar 2019 02:01:

OTR,
I don’t think you’re not normal because porn pulls you and makes you crazy. I think it’s probably pretty common (see a site called GYE) for people who’ve had some access to porn to go crazy with continued exposure to it. 

If I would be exposed to porn I would lose my mind a little. Or a lot. Baruch HaShem now I’m not, but it’s a super powerful drug that injects straight to your brain. 

I honestly wish I could use porn. I wish I was not obsessed with it once I see it to the point that it becomes my only focus and goal. The obsession. I honestly do not find I feel that way with masturbation alone. This was astounding to me. -

WG Are yo saying that you think normal people get shlepped into porn like that as well? I am under the impression that there are people who can pick it up and put it down just like I can do with a l'chayim, masturbation or snack foods..  All of these other things can be toxic to someone who relates to them as an addict. I don't personally so I can use them if I want to enjoy and then go on.. I think ppl who are not like us can do that with porn. 

For me porn is like a magnet.
I have to stay far far away from it.
Out of touch, reach and mind.

I have been clean from porn for a long time till recently, maybe a year or 2.
Then by mistake I fell with it and I was lost!
Took me a long time to stop an even after I stopped I still went crazy.
After a few weeks it got easier.
I didn't quit porn because God or because it's User just because it makes my life unmanageable! Can't work focus or be myself while watching, since I'm clean feel much better.

Even if it would be a Mitzva to watch porn, I would avoid this Miztva.