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OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is....
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TOPIC: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 77958 Views

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 08 Apr 2016 15:04 #284025

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eslaasos wrote on 08 Apr 2016 14:12:

mggsbms wrote on 08 Apr 2016 04:07:
If so why do you think don't chazal discuss addiction. Is it a new occurrence ?

How do you know they don't? It takes pleitzos to determine what the message is in different maamarei Chazal.


140 Cumulative Days
Personally, I think that they don't discuss addiction because the Torah was written for healthy people. You need to be a Ben Adam, and have a normal healthy mind to be able to really grow in Torah and Yiras shomayim, middos improvement.... And that is what the Chazal are expecting when issuing their directives, ma'marim etc... 

Addiction is an illness like depression or bipolar mood disorder.... It's not an evil inclination as in the person is being evil.... It's a deficiency of being normal. Is someone with bipolar or depression, 'bad' becuase they wake up feeling uncontrollably sad?  I know someone who has this illness. I pity them. THeir emotions are like a roller coaster they have very little control over. Much less control than healthy people. It's not just drama... They really get hit by waves of emotion that are totally not normal.


 
  • I've never been one for signatures.. but sometimes people change
  • I'm seeking the life that I find manageable which may not be the life you find manageable. But let's make a deal. I want you to find yours and you want me to find mine even if they are different.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 08 Apr 2016 15:08 #284027

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Lol. I am not at 365+. I think you may have more consecutive one days. I'm at 234 currently.
If you're an LGBTQ or LGBTQ-questioning person and looking for someone who can understand you, feel free to reach out. I promise no judgement and to try and listen the best I can. 

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Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 08 Apr 2016 23:17 #284085

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Shlomo24 wrote:



If this was anybody but you skep, I would probably get upset. I'm glad your back.


I just want to make it clear that I have nothing against you, or cordnoy, or anyone else on here who works the 12 Step Program. (And I'm sorry, OTR, for having hijacked your thread.)  I appreciate and truly value our friendships, and nothing I write regarding the program is an attack on you, or even on the program itself. There are just some things that really rub me the wrong way, and I gave in to the urge to speak up.



In terms of it [12 steps] being a form of CBT, well it preceded CBT by many years, the goals of Dr. Bob and Bill W. were not to create therapy. Dr. Carl Jung, the premiere psychologist of his time and one of the most well-known psychologists ever, said that only an act of God can keep the alcoholic sober.


It doesn't matter that the 12 Step Program was developed before Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, as we know it today, was. It doesn't change the fact that that is, in essence, what it is. There are Torah concepts that fit very nicely with the Cognitive-Behavioral approach, and there are many concepts in the 12 Step Program that can be found in Torah teachings.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is very different than Psychoanalytical Therapy, which Dr. Carl Jung, a psychiatrist, founded. Psychoanalytical Therapy is more of the kind of therapy you refer to, in which one dwells on the past while the therapist analyzes the effect the patient's experiences had on their subconscious and then diagnoses the patient. Dr. Jung was also a very firm believer in religion and therapy going hand-in-hand.  Cognitive Behavioral Therapy doesn't really focus on the past very much at all. Rather, CBT works with the assumption that thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are by-products of each other. Therefore, if one works on changing their faulty thoughts, their feelings will change, and when their feelings change, their behaviors will change.

When a person working the steps reminds himself that his behavior is destructive and makes his life unmanageable, that is CBT. When instead of impulsively acting out, he remembers that he has a Higher Power, and says the serenity prayer, and thereby puts his trust in said HP, that is CBT. When the urges are driving him crazy, and instead of giving in, he makes a resentment list of the people/things, and then lets go of that resentment to stay sober, that is CBT. When he surrenders his desires and the fight to his HP instead of trying to control them, that is CBT. The list goes on and on. When he is replacing his old attitude, and his old behaviors with new thoughts, and new behaviors, that is CBT.

Shlomo Hamelech wrote that there is nothing new under the sun, and that is reality. There may be different packages, but nothing is new.
 



Yes, one can get credit for committing to and working a good program, but in my experience the second that I think I am keeping myself sober is also the first second of my insanity. I can't speak for others, but people like me DO NOT get sober. Every time I have tried to keep myself sober I have failed. Every -- time.


I will agree that ego, and the feeling of being in control, will often lead to falling.
 



The purpose of the 4th step is to realize our character defects and begin to understand the scope of what addiction has done, (or whatever anonymous or anon group it is), in order so that we can truly be free and have the power of our "Higher Power" flow through us.


I have nothing at all against the 12 Step Program. Sometimes the terminology, and the culture, drives me up the wall, and I may say something about it, but that is all.

In this instance, a moshul of starting a lawnmower was given. The nimshal was that sometimes one must reevaluate, and see what he can do differently, while other times, he just needs to keep at it "until it catches". 

It was then said that one should "stop pulling the cord," stop trying to be in control, and just let go and let G-d. Sobriety is a gift, period. 

I believe that working the steps is work - it's not a magical solution. Put in the effort, trust in Hashem, and Hashem helps our efforts. There are people who go to real live meetings, they sincerely work the steps, and they still have setbacks. The setback is usually a sign that there was some sort of stress that resulted in a lapse in doing the work.  Don't give up! The important thing is get back to doing what has worked in the past, and learn from the setback how to deal with that sort of situation in the future.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 10 Apr 2016 03:14 #284121

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OTR wrote on 08 Apr 2016 15:04:

eslaasos wrote on 08 Apr 2016 14:12:

mggsbms wrote on 08 Apr 2016 04:07:
If so why do you think don't chazal discuss addiction. Is it a new occurrence ?

How do you know they don't? It takes pleitzos to determine what the message is in different maamarei Chazal.


140 Cumulative Days
Personally, I think that they don't discuss addiction because the Torah was written for healthy people. You need to be a Ben Adam, and have a normal healthy mind to be able to really grow in Torah and Yiras shomayim, middos improvement.... And that is what the Chazal are expecting when issuing their directives, ma'marim etc... 

Addiction is an illness like depression or bipolar mood disorder.... It's not an evil inclination as in the person is being evil.... It's a deficiency of being normal. Is someone with bipolar or depression, 'bad' becuase they wake up feeling uncontrollably sad?  I know someone who has this illness. I pity them. THeir emotions are like a roller coaster they have very little control over. Much less control than healthy people. It's not just drama... They really get hit by waves of emotion that are totally not normal.


 

Addiction may be an illness but there's no indication that Chazal weren't addressing it. Almost any taavah run amok can become an addiction. Sex, food, drinking, drugs, attachment, dependency. Chazal talk about נעשית לו כהיתר  and a consistent aveira becoming as thick as rope. The baalei mussar point out that a person can get to a point where they have no free will to stop an aveira, and there is nothing for you to do. 

Yet they point out that you don't have to necessarily answer for when you are in the throes of the issue. You have to answer for why you didn't protect yourself better or not take the first drink.

One example is where the Orach Chayim Hakadosh talks about how if one sees with is eyes and desires or fantasizes with his heart, it is impossible not to sin. So what to do? Don't look in the first place.

so to sum up, they seem to have been well aware that there can be instances where we don't seem to have much free will or control in the moment or in general. But they spoke to that by advising staying out of trouble in the first place, something I think we all wish. 



 

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 10 Apr 2016 17:21 #284185

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I hear what you are saying. And can see how you could fit the criteria of addiction into that definition. But what is the eitzah at that point? I don't see mussar as helping anyone in the throes of addiction. It's nice that the OC says, don't look to begin with... but what if you already have,,, and have ... and have and have and have...... etc.... Is the answer now, just do what everyone else has done- learn some more mussar... I don't think so personally. I need something else. 
 
  • I've never been one for signatures.. but sometimes people change
  • I'm seeking the life that I find manageable which may not be the life you find manageable. But let's make a deal. I want you to find yours and you want me to find mine even if they are different.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 10 Apr 2016 17:22 #284187

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OTR wrote on 10 Apr 2016 17:21:
I hear what you are saying. And can see how you could fit the criteria of addiction into that definition. But what is the eitzah at that point? I don't see mussar as helping anyone in the throes of addiction. It's nice that the OC says, don't look to begin with... but what if you already have,,, and have ... and have and have and have...... etc.... Is the answer now, just do what everyone else has done- learn some more mussar... I don't think so personally. I need something else.  

Right. Well said.
If you're an LGBTQ or LGBTQ-questioning person and looking for someone who can understand you, feel free to reach out. I promise no judgement and to try and listen the best I can. 

Email: iam24zman@gmail.com

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 11 Apr 2016 04:09 #284266

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No, mussar is not the solution. The solution is..........I have no idea. But lots of people here have found some sort of temporary solution through trial and error, twelve steps, phone calls, and who knows what else. 

What at works for you?

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 11 Apr 2016 04:24 #284268

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143 cumulative Days Sober
I realized I feel a lot less comfortable now than a few weeks ago. Even before I recently acted out, I was feeling more at peace in a way than now. I think inside my mind, I was 'confident' in myself in being able to stay sober. But I see looking back that this is not really the mindset I want to strive for. I want to strive for knowing my sobriety comes from God. ANd to thank him for it. - Or was that self confidence a good thing... I don't know... Not sure. I DO know that right now I want to appreciate being sober just for today and appreciating that God has helped me stay that way. But it has become hard for me to relate to that- Something inside me is pushing against that. 

I am now up to reading through the later steps- 8 and 9... but in practice I went back to the fourth as I see that this is really the foundation for so much of the 12 steps- really for everything from 4-9. So I felt I should go back and do it better than I did a few weeks ago. - It's a really time consuming work to go through all this and get it down in writing. I am doing it in stages I guess you might say. I noticed though that there are certain resentments that are more likely to cause me to immediately want to act out than others. Although ALL resentment is bad, I think those are the ones to focus on first. 
  • I've never been one for signatures.. but sometimes people change
  • I'm seeking the life that I find manageable which may not be the life you find manageable. But let's make a deal. I want you to find yours and you want me to find mine even if they are different.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 12 Apr 2016 00:49 #284337

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The foundation is the first three.
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 14 Apr 2016 00:57 #284522

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146 Cumulative Days Clean:

Ok here is a low down on what's going on with me now. Although maybe part of this belongs on the baleh batim forum, I think I can get the point across in an acceptable way and would prefer to put it on my personal thread here. - For whatever reason, my wife now is on the pill (yes shailos all cleared). I was nervous when we started this, as the pill is known, at least in our house, to screw up my wife's cycle immensely leading obviously to a strain on our situation. Well, today- 4 days after beginning yemei heter, she started seeing again. So that is pretty crappy. - At the same time it's not my biggest trigger right now.

Actually, my biggest trigger right now is paradoxically a very successful turn of events. I noticed that about 10 days ago, I also was riding the wave of a previous really good piece of news. I could not believe that something I had been working toward literally for about a half a year or more, had come to fruition. Well, the addict in me is not only allergic to lust, but allergic to success as well. You know how that works?.. every time things are going well he has to but his head in and somehow 'help' me tear it down... Maybe actively, or more likely subconsciously, and very often just by making me procrastinate until I am screwing things up enough to lose out...

Well, end of story was that I acted out. I didn't completely self destruct (thanks in large part to the forum and my call with my group where we have started talking about this stuff in the context of the 12 steps). But I did act out which is usually the first step toward my destroying my life by sucking me into more and more acting out at the expense of my real obligations. Thank G-d I got back into the group, calls, posting and have been sober since. 

This new piece of good news is a client who I chased years ago, who actually very much liked me and wanted to do business with me but I was not in position to help them at that time. Now it seems that I am, and we reconnected. - I know this sounds so ridicluous and it IS crazy- but having this opportunity right in front of me is causing me a LOT of anxiety. I know the work I need to do, to prepare the presentations, etc.. and all that needs to be done to make my sales pitch so to speak. And I am doing it, but inside I feel like a tightrope that is being stretched tighter and tighter. - And then I think "Boy are you (meaning me) ungrateful for this incredible kindness that Hashem is showing you" - "How could you even think about acting out when you are getting such a great opportunity etc..." - .... but yes' THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SOMEHOW STIRS MY INSIDES AND MAKES ME PRONE TO ACTING OUT. I need to chill out. I need to hear what is going on inside me, and address it correctly.

Sometimes resentments, anger at others... and all those things that are discussed in SA contribute toward me wanting to act out. Right NOW, THIS is what is effecting me.

Insight from you guys is welcome.... 
  • I've never been one for signatures.. but sometimes people change
  • I'm seeking the life that I find manageable which may not be the life you find manageable. But let's make a deal. I want you to find yours and you want me to find mine even if they are different.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 14 Apr 2016 02:59 #284544

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For the sake of clarity, are your actually feeling anxiety? Are you nervous or pressured? You did write that above, but I sense something else and that is why I ask.
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 14 Apr 2016 03:21 #284550

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Yes to all the above. Definitely anxious, nervous and pressured.... T

his new financial opportunity could really sginificantly alter my situation for the better. Things have been doing better in the parnassa dept, and I am working hard.
BH seeing some peiros (especially now that I am a lot more productive overall regarding having less acting out in my schedule over the last month and a half.) - This opportunity could really help ease things considerably and really put us on a somewhat normal plateau. And that is to a degree why I feel more anxious about it. 

Writing it out is certainly helping me get a grip on this though and learn to deal with it/ process it correctly (as opposed to totally bouncing out of reality and acting out) 

But if you detect something else that you think may be at play, we have certainly spoken and I would value your opinion as to what that might be... You have certainly been on the mark with some points you have made to me before..
  • I've never been one for signatures.. but sometimes people change
  • I'm seeking the life that I find manageable which may not be the life you find manageable. But let's make a deal. I want you to find yours and you want me to find mine even if they are different.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 14 Apr 2016 11:50 #284572

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I have found and heard that success itself (even without the nervousness) can lead to lust, and that is because (I think) the "me" factor gets involved and is prominent.
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 14 Apr 2016 16:40 #284595

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We are not talking about success here. I am not holding at major accomplishments it's more about getting into a normal 'making it financially' situation. But the main issue inside that I feel is more self destructive, or too nervous to allow it to work out type of thing... 
  • I've never been one for signatures.. but sometimes people change
  • I'm seeking the life that I find manageable which may not be the life you find manageable. But let's make a deal. I want you to find yours and you want me to find mine even if they are different.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 14 Apr 2016 23:49 #284635

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Anxiety, nervousness, and pressure are very common triggers, and procrastination is a symptom of that.

Life feels like it's just too much for us. What will be? Will I be successful? But maybe I'll mess it up! So many thoughts, and so many unknowns. Our mind's response is to escape. Let's do something else. Maybe by that time, the stress will go away or work itself out!

But there's another way.

What's the most important thing in life? If your answer was breathing, you are correct! "Let go, and let G-d," they say. Be happy, and do what needs to done - Hashem will take care of the rest, the way He sees fit. 
 
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