This is soooo sad, the Torah is so subtle and exquisite and for so many people the best reason we can come up with to keep it is because of mother's dirty looks. We are sooo stupid.

I wish I could take out insurance to make sure I never again stroke myself with yiddishkeit or anything else. Thank G-d one day I'm gonna die. No wonder they call it the olam ha emes, we will finally stop the bullsh*t.

When I got home tonight after dinner I sat on the couch. My wife came over and sat on the other side of the couch. I said "I'm getting a cold, I've been sneezing all day." She faced towards the opposite side of the couch. I asked her if she was turning away because I had a cold. She said "no." Then she put her foot on my leg. I touched her foot, and she wiggled it. Later tonight I asked her if she wanted to snuggle, she said no. I told her that it was confusing to me that earlier it seemed as if she wanted to snuggle, but then it turned out that she didn't.

I think this is roughly the conversation with the Satan as this whole thing went on:

Satan: She's coming over, she wants you tonight.
Me: Maybe she just wants to cuddle.
Satan: She's putting her foot on your leg, she wants you.
Me: You may be right, but I can't be one hundred percent sure.
Satan: It's pretty clear, she's wiggling her foot as you touch it.
Me: You are right, but I still can't be totally sure. She could just be teasing me.
Satan: She looks good with her wrap, it's shiny. She's wearing it for you.
Me: It could be, but it's also because her sheitel is falling apart and she can't afford to get a new one. And this is more comfortable for her.
Satan: You're touching her foot, you have to think about sex, you can't resist.
Me: You may be right, let me get back to you later.

I couldn't pay full attention to the Satan while this was going on because my kids came over and sat in my lap and made fun of me.

The Satan only enters a woman's body on Erev shabbos....the rest of the week it is your fried brain and mine....and the question on women's motives. ....freg nisht

I have seen exceptions to this rule. Maybe you know a different kind of lady.

hwhap@gmx.com wrote:


I know the same lady; for all i know, we are married to the same one.
My point is/was that it is not the Satan; it is us; we need to learn how to deal with it.

and when you do figure it out, let me know please.

Thanks

b'hatzlachah

If this is not the Satan I don't know what it is. I mean, I know it's me, but I have the Satan inside. Or maybe it's called the yetzer hara.

If you can tell me what the Satan says I might have some idea of what to say back to him.

I don't know either of them.
If you feel the Satan or the y"h gettin' to you, then follow the Gemora's advice: mashcheihu l'beis hamidrash, v'im lav......

Let us know what you learned and for how long and what were the results.

thanks

I'm very careful not to jump to conclusions from gemara quotes because I don't fully understand them, and sometimes they take me down the wrong path because I'm applying them in the wrong way.

Specifically, I noticed that sometimes "yetzer hara" is used when discussing somebody who's happy with his yiddishkeit, but he just wants some variety, he wants to try new things. Other times it means a specific yetzer hara, like when it says that most people fall in the area of theft or forbidden relations. The difference is often of material importance to me because I think some remedies (like learning Torah) should work, but I find that they don't. The reason is because they are remedies for a different meaning of the words "yetzer hara." It's apples and oranges.

Some people can compartmentalize their logic, so that the Torah encompasses some things, but therapy, medicine or science cover other things. They fail to see that this is not a viable view of the world because they cannot operationally define where the Torah ends and where all the other stuff begins. But they are not bothered by that consideration, because they don't make progress by understanding, at any given moment they might be sober but they don't necessarily know how they got there. And they may even speak at length about what they think they know, but they are always sort of beating around the bush with a lot of analogies because at the end of the day they just don't know how it all works inside.

I'm not that kind of person. If I don't understand my recovery then I don't want it. For me the Torah encompasses everything. The science, therapy, and recovery programs seem to me just a manifestation of the fact that we don't know what the Torah says in this area any more. So for me if the gemara explains sin as a conversation with the Satan (as in the case of the golden calf) and you say different, then the gemara wins.

I think in this case the beis medrash would not be necessary or sufficient. I just answered the Satan as I wrote in my post and that was sufficient this time around. After decades of masturbation I'm pretty sure that if I don't answer the Satan and I just go to the beis medrash he'll be waiting for me when I get back.

Yesterday I went on a rant about the idea that "you have to watch your eyes or you are one of the bad guys." Of course the flip side, and they go hand in hand, is the idea that when you watch your eyes you are one of the good guys, and you stroke yourself to that effect, so it's very motivating. But I think I had a bad experience with my own narcissism, so I tend to obsess about the negative aspects.

As soon as I got done writing the post I checked the financial news on cnbc.com and I saw this article:

"Narcissism actually produces results: The rise of the world changers"

I think it refers to the founders of Facebook, Google, or Tesla Motors, who are big innovators. But I thought maybe Hashem was speaking to me with this article because Jews are "the people from the other side," world changers, and without feeling good about ourselves there would be little motivation because you only really appreciate the Torah after you gain a lot of experience.

Maybe now that my narcissism has kept me out of jail and out of trouble and got me attached to the true good, I can say "thank you" and set it down gently instead of booting it out.

hwhap@gmx.com wrote:


I don't get the entire thing, but that's fine.

two points:
1. the thrust of my previous post was that the beis medrash will not win, but not as you say - that when you come back you will find him waitin', - by me, he was there with me.
2. you said that you don't take one gemora literally or precisely, for you need the entire picture, and the end of your post, you seemed to take one gemora and ran with it; how do you choose?

either way, you don't have to answer me; i'm just a lust addict nudnik.

b'hatzlachah

cordnoy wrote:


Interesting questions.

I see. I guess I didn't understand what you meant.

Fascinating what you say about the Satan being in the beis medrash with you, and it makes sense, because I think the gemara says that you take him to the beis medrash with you. You're right, what I said was not so accurate. If I don't answer the Satan and I just go to the beis medrash he'll go there with me and keep shmoozing me about this so that when I get home I'm about ready to explode.

You got me there.

Regarding the apparent contradiction about my statements on the gemara I don't think I really contradicted myself. I think I said I'm very careful. If I think I understand why the gemara gives a certain advice, then I follow it. If I don't think I understand it I don't follow it until I understand it better. I think I understand both of those gemaras (not 100%, but the part regarding the yetzer hara) so I'm comfortable saying that just taking the action of going to the beis medrash wouldn't cut it, and something different was needed.

But I think learning Torah helps in ways which I don't even understand, like big, long-term help which I desperately need. Help with the big picture of my life. It could be a help which is soooo big that I can't even make it out.

hwhap@gmx.com wrote:

hwhap@gmx.com wrote:

There are different methods to successful recovery discussed on this forum. DO whatever works for you. But I think most agree that understanding how something works is far from a necessity. If it works for you, great. If not, stay away. Still, many of us have found the need to understand different tactics to be an impediment to successful recovery. Don't get so hung up on it.

Bigmoish wrote:


I think you are right to a certain extent. You are right in the sense that if I surrender my desire it just works, I don't have to ponder it, and pondering it will be instead of doing what really works. Having said that, sometimes at SA meetings I see people who have been sober for a year and then boom they are off the wagon and they need to pick up the pieces. This will happen to me if I'm sober but I don't know the true reasons why I chose to be sober, for example. So a total lack of understanding is not good either.




I agree that it's easy to get distracted and you end up thinking about something which is not what you need in the here and now.

My wife was wearing a really pretty thing tonight. I toyed with the idea of getting her in bed. Then I figured that if I have an urge and I take any action on it whatsoever, I validate the yetzer that says I have to have it at all costs, because really that's why I want it, and then it's the worse the next time around. So I kept my mouth shut.

After she wasn't wearing it any more though I told her that she had worn something really pretty and maybe some other time she can wear it for me. She felt relieved that I wasn't pressuring her to perform. I think I did a good thing to talk about it but out of the context of the urge because this way she knows. Very occasionally she'll do something to turn me on. Usually she's too tired.

Also, now I think she is turned off because I really wanted her recently when she decided to go on a diet. Even though I never really initiated it myself I was too "into it," I tried to use her to make myself feel like a great emperor. She wants to know that she is wanted, but she wants everything on her own terms. It also turns her off that I've been going to shul for mincha and maariv and she doesn't see me so much.

It's just like Rabbi Miller says, Hashem sends us the wife in an attractive package and then she sands us down us like sand paper ...

I was feeling really uncomfortable earlier and finally sat down and wrote myself a long letter where I presented evidence that my wife is becoming more attractive (because she is dieting and trying new head coverings and clothes) and simultaneously requires less attention, (partly because I go to shul at night and don't baby her so much, and because she's tired all the time.) I think as a result of these two incompatible trends I need to go back to regarding my wife as more of a liability than an asset. I need to use my tools when I see any part of her, like seeing porn. It took me a while to accept this because for a while we had a lot of good intimacy, but just like she is the mirror of me I'm the mirror of her as well. She asked for this.

I think one area where I can improve is to communicate more, but I don't feel comfortable asking for sex a certain number of times a week, for example, or once a week. I don't think a conversation will improve things. Actions speak louder than words.

I feel much more comfortable with myself now because I think I'm viewing my situation a lot more realistically. Sometimes I think that because things aren't changing it means they are never going to change. It's time to adapt.