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From tragedy to redemption
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TOPIC: From tragedy to redemption 38080 Views

Re: From tragedy to redemption 05 Jun 2015 04:40 #256125

  • Hashivalisesonyishecho
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yiraishamaim wrote:
Amen

not to burst your bubble or anything but -seems like a segulah- which would tend to mean helpful and sure go for it but nothing near a guarantee.

As well,isn't that way a little too simplistic. And perhaps a little out of character for the deep thinking intellectual that you clearly are?


Thanks for the compliment.

I used to understand all maamorim of chazal or rishonim and achronim in a sechel way, but lately I don't limit it to that. I believe that there is much more to it than just what we can understand. For example is says mitzva goreres mitzva so the Bartenura says first the sechel understanding that it is natural that when you do a mitzva you're bound to do another. But then he says a second pshat which goes beyond that. He says that there is a special siyata deshmaya that one gets after doing a mitzva. And he clearly means not just more of the first pshat but a whole new aspect. Like what you call a segula. So If this maamar which I mentioned has a good source, which I remember that it does, (maybe someone could tell us where it says), then it is true beyond what I can understand with sechel. just watch. Remember how Kof Sivan went and see how Yom Kipur goes and you'll be surprised how things work which we don't comprehend.

P.S. And I'm generally not a segula follower, as you, yiraishamaim, correctly assumed.
Last Edit: 05 Jun 2015 04:41 by Hashivalisesonyishecho.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 05 Jun 2015 04:46 #256128

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K
It can only help - Bli Neder I too will jump on the kaf sivan bandwagon.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 05 Jun 2015 04:51 #256129

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Guys, you're getting me all nervous about chaf Sivan. I even just got up to check when it is. Was hoping it was today but now I've got the anxiety of next few days..
I might say I don't do segulos but boy I can't help but be choishesh for them. Who here hasn't davened for his esrog on tu bishvat?

Re: From tragedy to redemption 05 Jun 2015 04:58 #256131

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I don't know much torah but the Rambam said something famous along the lines of : if you have the mesikus of toirah in your mind, that's the way to go. Maybe a project of daily mishnayos or Gemara that you live in, then if you happen to have learned it the day before or even that day, or you have a task of writing down the points you learned while in the terminal etc.
I don't pretend to have done this but the little learning I've sometimes done and felt the mesikus hatorah - and I get what the Rambam is saying.
I wasn't being modest about how little I've done that, it's the truth but it's a response that popped into my head in response to your question.
Have a safe flight and a productive trip.
Shlomo

Re: From tragedy to redemption 05 Jun 2015 18:41 #256197

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All this Torah is beautiful!

And before we can be mekayem lo sasuru, we need to add a little caveat. I'd like to share some simple Emess - a little "sichoson shel avdei ovos" that Hashem probably loves more than "Torason shel bonim". Please let me suggest the following, based on my experience:

The woman you refer to (who Hashem made and has a purpose for) is obviously not repulsive to you at all... no matter how loudly you call her "a disgusting, repulsive *****". Hashem knows that to you (whatever your real name is, not 'hashivalissonyishecho') she is hauntingly attractive, maybe even beautiful. Otherwise you wouldn't be drawn to her image so powerfully. Hashem - who's seal is Emess - knows the truth: that you are enthralled by her tzura and somewhat obsessed with her.

Why fight it and deny it ad k'dei kach that you are mevazeh a person who may be higher than you in Hashem's eyes? We do not know what she was brought up with and how. You do not know how you would have come out if you'd have been born in her exact place. Maybe you and I would have come out far worse than she chose to become.

You are a good man and a good yid, b"H! But calling her "temeya" - does not make her so to you. Sorry, chaver.

And writing and expounding on [what you interpret as] the Torah's attitude toward her - obviously does not make it your own attitude. Sorry there, again.

Fantasizing about a woman (or a man) you are enthralled by, is fantasy. Admitting you find something about her pretty is not a shame at all. It's not dangerous, either - if it is the truth.

Call it what it is and you will be closer to the page that Hashem is on. Hashem does not live in fantasy - not even in religious fantasy. If there in anything repulsive here, it is our desire and obsession, not her.

R' Yaakov Hillel bemoans the fact that Kabola study often attracts frum people who basically prefer magical thinking to being normal: pretending (just a bit) that they understand gilgulim, what's 'their tikun', fantasizing about protim of chochmas hapartzuf, that they really know the midah keneged middah in their own lives or in the lives of others, etc. Magical thinking may have truth in it - but it's still magical and not the path of sanity and temimus with Hashem. He writes about holding tight onto the ikkar: being normal, not magical. And of all people! He is a great mekubal. So geshmak.

Please consider together with this, just why you grasp onto magical thinking like the 'chof Sivan' business. Now, you may not believe it, but I probably believe in Torah and kabolah at least as much as you do and learn and love them and chassidus as much as you do, as well. But why do you 'nemm ohn' davka such a thing?

Because - just like the repulsive shvatza - it's magical. This day, makes that day. Magic. Really bavourning the ikkar: just be normal and simple with G-d.

And by the way, R Yaakov Hillel's sefer on being normal is called just that: "Tomim tihyeh in Hashem Elokecho".

And the 12 step program is all about precious temimus.

You are a very good man. Please don't ruin it by mixing up with nahrishkeit'n...even if they have truth in them, they are not a derech avodah that lends itself to sanity.

And sanity is very, very precious...even for Torah-yidden. Sometimes we fantasize that with enough 'Torah', sanity becomes not so important, you know? But it is always essential. For if you and I have enough simple sanity, the women we see will appear as they are: as people - instead of the way this black women is appearing to you now and to all of us when we obsess about them: as goddesses.

Leave this woman alone in your head, chaver. Just let her be. She is Hashem's, not yours. Not yours to judge and not yours to possess in fantasy and not yours to hate. She's just not yours at all. And Tatty has a very good plan for her that you and I are not privy to. Just leave her alone for good or ill, is what I suggest.

Please pardon me for being so very blunt, but I feel that someone needs to say this here.

PS. If you decide to takeh pray for her, then the worst thing you can do for yourself is to mainly daven that she do Teshuvah for being 'so evil and repulsive', etc. Please consider just davening for her to get all the brocho that Hashem has planned for her in her life for the tachlis that He made her and He only, knows. Health, safety from violence, emotional pain, a hard life and a hard death. All these things you can ask Hashem to give her - for she surely needs them as we all do. And you do care for her, if you have a human heart. For if she were in a burning car would not any Jew run to try and save her or her child? Honestly, please. You would, as many tzaddikim have saved random goyim from tzaros because rachamov al kol maasov is just the truth.

With your tefilah for her, you can just put her into Hashem's hands and leave her there. She will be fine - and so will you.
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"
Last Edit: 14 Jun 2015 15:07 by Kedusha.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 05 Jun 2015 22:14 #256210

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Thank you Dov. My eyes were tearing up by the time I got to the end.
Much Hatzlacha!

My Threads:
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--"ולא המדרש עיקר, אלא המעשה"
--"To promise not to do a thing is the surest way in the world to make a body want to go and do that very thing." Mark Twain
--"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking (or lusting), you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic (or sexaholic)." AA Big Book P. 45. Parenthesis added.
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Re: From tragedy to redemption 05 Jun 2015 23:54 #256213

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Thank you Dov for challenging me like that, but I totally disagree. It's erev Shabbos and Sunday I have a planned trip, but I plan to respond when I can. Then we will let the Oilam judge.

Gut Shabbos

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Jun 2015 23:25 #256224

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[quote="Hashivalisesonyishecho" post=256125]yiraishamaim wrote:

So If this maamar which I mentioned has a good source, which I remember that it does, (maybe someone could tell us where it says), then it is true beyond what I can understand with sechel. just watch. Remember how Kof Sivan went and see how Yom Kipur goes and you'll be surprised how things work which we don't comprehend.

P.S. And I'm generally not a segula follower, as you, yiraishamaim, correctly assumed.


not taking any side in the machlokes lesheim shamayim here,
the mekor is from the Apta Rov in the end of his sefer Oheiv Yisroel,
they say it has to do with being the time to start focusing more on the yomim noraim which are around the corner (the Kloizinberger Rebbe said it has to do with being 130 days before the end of tishrei which is the end of the yomim noraim)

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Jun 2015 23:38 #256225

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lfi zeh it is not some hocus pocus to just be on your best behavior that day and you will live happily ever after. adraba it means if you start now you will come better prepared to the yomim noraim. how should you work on it? maybe 12 steps, maybe some other way...
maybe 14 steps then it is mefurash in the pasuk yad(yud dalet) al cais kah
either way kesiva vachasima tova to all

Re: From tragedy to redemption 07 Jun 2015 02:47 #256228

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The day you see the emes in what Dov is saying, will be the day you get recovery. May you find it soon.

Hatzlacha!
Much Hatzlacha!

My Threads:
Glad to be here
Don't slip it hurts
Lions & Tigers & Internet, Oh My!

--"ולא המדרש עיקר, אלא המעשה"
--"To promise not to do a thing is the surest way in the world to make a body want to go and do that very thing." Mark Twain
--"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking (or lusting), you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic (or sexaholic)." AA Big Book P. 45. Parenthesis added.
--You hit rock bottom when you decide to stop digging.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 07 Jun 2015 13:44 #256252

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
Thank you Dov for challenging me like that, but I totally disagree. It's erev Shabbos and Sunday I have a planned trip, but I plan to respond when I can. Then we will let the Oilam judge.

Gut Shabbos


I hope the oilem's judgement doesn't matter. Sof maiseh, only what you come to believe or know, is what matters. As they told us: "im ein ani mi, mi li?"

The judgement regarding all I wrote is not whether it is a sefer says it is the way it should be, whether sources in Chaza"l would agree about the subject in general terms that describe the Torah's approach to the topic. No, that's not what Hashem cares about, at all. The thing that matters is whether it is the truth about you or me right now.

I am not accusing you of anything, but usually what happens in these 'Torah-based' discussions is that people hide behind what should be, instead of allowing acceptance of what is with them. As though admitting that they are obsessed with her because they adore what she's got is an issur of some kind! Heh. It's really just shame and embarrassment, that's all. No bigggie. Accepting the truth is not a danger to avodas Hashem. It never is. It's actually the only way to start it.

And don't worry - accepting what is, is not the end of the matter. The Torah is the only end of the matter.

When Chaza"l say Derech Eretz kodma laTorah, they also mean self-honesty is precious and good - especially if the truth about me or you is "against" the Torah. Honesty about that truth actually converts it to Torah. It is the core of the real vidui that sforim tell us switches 'midas hadin to midas harachamim'. Sefl-honesty. Sefl-honesty that is against all the sforim and the Torah - the truth about how we feel and what our motives are right now. It opens us to real avodas Hashem. It is also how dinnim are 'nimtakim b'shorshom', in a respect. This honesty thing is very big stuff, indeed.

Like the Kotzker put it, on the words: "Emess m'eretz titzmoch". "Where exactly does the Emess grow? From the exact spot that the sheker is buried."

Hope you hear me. This is not a debate. It's not about the Torah or how things should be or what we should believe as yidden. It's all and only about you and me and where we are really holding right now. That's what He wants. Liba - my heart right now, sick and dirty as it may be. My real heart...not the deepest heart that is pure and good. That heart He always had and sees! And as perfect as it is, it does us no good.

He wants the truth right now about me and you. Derech Eretz. Only then, does Torah become of real value.
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"
Last Edit: 07 Jun 2015 16:15 by Dov.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 07 Jun 2015 17:55 #256281

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Thank you, Dov, for a very meaningful, clear, honest and non-aggressive post! I really appreciate it. For me, its one of your best. But that's just me.
אלא יש לו לייחד כל מעשיו לשמו הגדול לבד, ולא ישתף עמו דבר אחר
That's the goal. The key to everything. Working on it, bs"d.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 07 Jun 2015 21:59 #256296

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kilochalu wrote:
lfi zeh it is not some hocus pocus to just be on your best behavior that day and you will live happily ever after. adraba it means if you start now you will come better prepared to the yomim noraim. how should you work on it? maybe 12 steps, maybe some other way...
maybe 14 steps then it is mefurash in the pasuk yad(yud dalet) al cais kah
either way kesiva vachasima tova to all


R' TzviMeyer Zilverberg shlit"a frequently relates these things (the connection between times and dates) throughout the calendar because, like the entire B'nei Yisoschar does, he likes to sharpen the focus on the special qualities of each time. Each time is special in it's own way and is a beautiful opportunity. But R' TzviMeyer is the among the most surrendered and self-honest men I have ever met (besides his Torah and yir'ah that I have no place to even describing because they are so far from my own. But I try to spend as much of my time in EY as possible with him whenever we are there because it rubs off! ).

But saying it isn't hocus pocus does not make it really so, in the heart of a man. Leiv yodeya moras nafsho and many of us are actually unaware of the ways we really think. And we substitute the ways we should think with the ways we really do. Therein lies the issue I was trying to be melabein. Not an easy task. But thanks for clarifying the way things should be with the beautiful idea brought down by the Apter zy"a!
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"

Re: From tragedy to redemption 11 Jun 2015 20:35 #256661

Dear Hashivalisesonyishecho, My prayer for you is that HASHEM open your eyes to emes! regarding the "Oilam" I will remind you of the saying "the Oilam is a Goilam"
Bracho V'Hatzlocho
Last Edit: 11 Jun 2015 20:39 by aryehdovid85. Reason: unclear

Re: From tragedy to redemption 12 Jun 2015 04:17 #256701

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A goilam with a big heart.

Please remember all is said here in the spirit of friendship with the goal of sobriety. We struggle together, laugh together and cry together.

some of us use warm and cuddly language, some silly, others have tough brooklynese but it all comes from a good place.

Please post more often - you are sorely missed
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