No apology necessary in this case, since I did not take offense because I endeavor not to buy into anything that could change my decision to always treat myself with regard, even if I don't measure up, so to speak. But I appreciate your apology because you thought you hurt my feelings.

The disagreement is there, and any time it comes up it could lead to the same discussion. I will steer clear of your threads so you can play your tennis match without senseless interference. Good fences make good neighbors.

ploni.almoni@gmx.com wrote:


...and good fences also make good protection from the Y"H.

MT

It seems that the twelve steps are not a set thing like a staircase made out of cement. It seems that the twelve steps are more like כללים and have many פרטים and everyone can learn and act differently on each one, like designing one's own staircase with twelve steps which will get him up the twelve steps best for him to the light.

What you are saying is theoretically correct, but not very useful in practice. I assume the steps are in the order they are most easily worked. If when you read about them you don't see why the order makes sense, you have no business changing it. Well, you can do it, but you are going to be disappointed.

When you try a process (applies to any kind of process) it is wise to do it first according to the manual. After you use the official version and you have figured out why it works and when it doesn't then you can make modifications. For example Dov here is probably qualified to make modifications if he wished to do so.

I actually hold that this idea of me looking at something and making a call is the underlying problem of addiction, depression, and life in general, and is the very thing that the Torah is intended to correct, the etz ha-das. This is my personal opinion.

You see this problem in this very web site. If you want to do the 12-step program, well, it says to go to meetings in person. If you do it on an online forum all bets are off.

I don't mean to say that the 12-step program is G-d's official addiction recovery program, so to speak (though others must think just that,) I am just explaining that a wise person doesn't mess with things he doesn't understand yet.

Interestingly, there is another 12-step recovery program, known as the Mesilas Yeshorim's program for recovery. The 12 steps are (as outlined in his preface):
1. Torah
2. Zehirus
3. Zrizus
4. Nekiyus
5. Prishus
6. Tahara
7. Chassidus
8. Anovoh
9. Yiras Cheit
10. Kedusha
11. Ruach Hakodesh
12. Techiyas Hameisim

I know, I know, 'they' say it wasn't meant for addicts. But then again, not everyone here is an addict, so it may work for some.

Hatzlacha in whatever you try.

MT

Maybe you misunderstood me Ploni, I am not saying that one should switch the order or something like that, but the ways people interpret each step and its connection and place and meaning is not unified amongst everyone.
BTW, who is this Dov who I hear so much great things about?

And Machshovo Tova, here is for what you brought (very interesting!):
1. Torah- Realizing you can't do it, so what do you do? You learn Torah.
2. Zehirus- We are then coming to realize there is a power over us that can return our
sanity, so we are careful of what we do for we realized it is out of our
grasp.
3. Zrizus- We quickly give up our lives and will to God.
4. Nekiyus- We cleaned ourselves and found all the "Shmutz".
5. Prishus- We let go of our feelings out into the air to a friend, to ourselves and to
God.
6. Tahara- We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character and
Purify us.
7. Chassidus- We humbly ask God to remove our shortcomings, keeping us away from him.
8. Anovoh- We make a list of people we hurt and understand that we have to make amends
to them all.
9. Yiras Cheit- We made amends to whoever we hurt with caution not to hurt someone in
the process.
10. Kedusha- We continue making a לשבון נפש and continue fixing ourselves every time
we find a problem.
11. Ruach Hakodesh- We seek through prayer and periodical seclusion (התבודדות) to be
more connected and closer to God.
12. Techiyas Hameisim- We are the ones bringing the dead to life.

If you realize, the Torah is the whole backbone of this whole twelve piece spinal cord.
(I know some of it was a little to overstretched possibly, but at least I tried)

That was beautiful! Shkoyach!

MT

It's cute, but I think we are going to disagree. Addiction recovery stops at nekius in my opinion.

And as far as I know everyone who is in the 12-step program understands the steps in the same way.

I don't work the 12-steps, but since joining this site, I have had exposure to them, both from here and from several books I have glanced at.

Most people would say that my exposure is less than scratching the surface, yet I have still been able to notice that as there are many different people with many different ways of thinking, there seems to be quite a lot of approaches and takes on interpretations of how to go about them. If there would only be one way, there would just be "The Big Book," and that would be it, but look up the 12-steps and you'll find many many more books on the subject.

I guess we got different impressions about that.

If there was only one way of understanding the 12 steps then it would not work because every person is different, what there is, is a "visual Spectrum" in which the 12 steps are in and how one understands them can go between red and violet.
And about healing going up to Nekiut, I disagree, first of all who is we you are talking about? And second of all I said what I wrote was far stretched, but here is what I really think:
1. Torah- this is the core foundation of everything because if it wasn't assur i might as well probably be masturbating right now.
2. Zehirus- That is saying to yourself "no more 'I can control it' crap!"
3. Zrizus- This is the part where we keep ourselves from sinning after we understood that
we can't fight it and only God can help us.
4. Nekiyus- That is the cleaning up process, step 4.
5. Prishus- Fences, fences, fences...
6. Tahara- Asking God to remove all of our shortcomings...step 7.
7. Chassidus- This is step 11, feeling close to God.
8. Anovoh- This is probably out of place in this context, but you need Anovoh the whole
way through.
9. Yiras Cheit- This is the second half of step 11 and also the first 3 steps, you do
not want to sin!
10. Kedusha- This is between steps 11 and twelve, you reached the point of full
healthiness.
11. Ruach Hakodesh- This is using your inner voice to guide you on the right path, step
10 must be repeated all the time.
12. Techiyas Hameisim- This is step 12.

You misght disagree and others too (and you probably will) but this is my thought and what i see in the "visual spectrum" of it all.

Okay, thanks. I'll let you have the last word on that one.