Somebody pointed out that I was asked what method I am using to stay clean and recover and I wrote a response, but it was sort of vague. So he asked me how come I am keeping it secret. The answer is that since there is something that I cannot communicate in writing, I don't want to get frustrated. But perhaps one thing that would help is to state one claim that you can look at and decide whether to call me a liar.

The claim is that in a few weeks I can show you how to reduce your yetzer ha-ra to manageable levels. You read that right, I am claiming that your yetzer will go down. My impression is that it goes down by a factor of a hundred or so, but this is subjective. The reason it works is that you are generating a feeling of being overwhelmed because you erroneously believe that you are out of control. When you are clean normally you don't keep track of the time, so your clean time does nothing to reduce your desire. But there's a way of being clean that does refute it. This is the explanation, whether you like it or not, and I hereby claim that it works.

We need a big disclaimer here that sobriety is not recovery. Just shrinking your yetzer ha-ra is not a recovery method, because the strong yetzer ha-ra is not the underlying cause of the addiction. But I deliberately do not want to talk about that. I just wanted to state this claim so that people can call me a liar if they wish to do so, so I know where I stand.

ploni.almoni@gmx.com wrote:

I don't think you are a liar. You are telling the truth that you claim it works. No question about that. But, what works? Realizing that you are in control? That's wonderful. Does that particular flavour of "staying clean" do anything other than bolster your ability/need to control? Does is bring you to appreciate life exactly as Hashem has given it to you? If so, sounds fabuloso! If not, well, consider borrowing concepts of bittul from the chevra here.

Keep on keepin' on!!

Sure I do. If I keep up my regularly appointed time of solitude when I write to myself I do spot instances when my behavior shows that I am not accepting something which is not going to change. As long as I stay mindful I have adequate acceptance.

I purposefully refrain from trying to read G-d's mind though, since I cannot do that well. I accept things which I can measure, for example the way my wife behaves, not things that I imagine G-d wants me to do.

Hi,
If I may ask, what is the difference between sobriety and recovery? What is the underlying problem if not a strong Yetser HaRah?

When you feel entitled to a lot of things, you resent people when you don't get what you want, etc. You think life should only go one way, the way you want it to go. You don't go with the flow of life, so to speak. When you feel disappointed you reach for your drug, and you still don't get what you want, you just get your drug. Then you feel bad about it because you believe it's wrong and you reach for your drug again as an anesthetic, and around and around you go.

You can't just turn off the desire.

I feel inclined to disagree, I feel that the point of the 12 steps, according to how I understand them, is that the point is to go back to a regular and even a much stronger life without the need of the drug and I actually got an answer from GYE about how recovery is when you don't feel the urge anymore really and that could happen like the Gemarah says: איבר קטן באדם, משביעו רעב, מרעיבו שבע

I respect your opinion. Thank you for posting on my thread.

I have to agree with Ploni here. The way he described entitlement and reaching for your drug is exactly what I experience. As long as I feel entitled I am in danger of falling.

It is true that the less you feed the lust, the less you want it. But that is really because (IMHO) when you feed it you create a cycle of

Entitlement->Disappointment->Lust->Frustration->Entitlement

Where:
Entitlement: I feel I deserve X to happen for me.
Disappointment: Because X didn't happen I feel wronged and need comforting
Lust: Turning to lust to calm the disappointment and make you feel better
Frustration: that the lusting didn't fix anything, it probably only made you feel worse.

So the Y"H involved is not the lust per se, it is more the fact that you feel the entitlement in the first place, which if you think about it is denying Hashem's judgment or control of the world.

You are definitely an engineer, as your picture suggests.

Like I said put it in a equation or a graph and I will get it much faster.

So while I cannot make my tie look like that, I am definitely a nerd, and proud of it.

I meant it as a compliment.

Do you the old joke about the mathematician, the physicist and the engineer, and prime numbers?

I was not taking offense, just telling it like it is.

So what is the joke?
EDIT:
Nevermind I looked it up

A mathematician, physicist, and engineer are taking a math test. One question asks "Are all odd numbers prime?"

•Mathematician: "3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime. The result follows by induction."
•Physicist: "3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is experimental error..."
•Engineer: "3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is prime..."



hahaha

So you're saying that because of the feeling of entitlement which then you get disappointed from you reach for your drug? Then simply if one does Step 3 one should not have such a problem because when disappointment comes from entitlement it means that the person thought he was entitled for something, but as good Jews we know that frankly we are entitled to nothing and everything is from God in his mercy and so if one can really accept that and turn his will over to God he will not feel entitled to anything anymore and thus not get disappointed and thus will not reach out for his drug.

for me, step 4, making a moral inventory was a real turning point, specifically the resentment list and trying to let go of resentment. I think sometimes feeling resentment can cause a person to want to take something back for himself, and not even feel bad about it. I know that I'm most pushed toward porn when my wife does something I'm not happy with.

I want to take the opportunity to publicly apologise to Ploni for things I said that were hurtful. It was a long debate and clearly we don't see eye to eye about some things, but there was no reason for me to say anything that could hurt or offend you and for that I am sorry.

I've always said I think you're a good guy and I still think that. Your perseverance in tackling this problem is inspiring and the patience and kindness you show to your family is extraordinary. I do believe you are a tzaddik and I am sorry for offending you.

That is exactly what I am saying. It is that attitude change that has helped me break the cycle.
The way I understand it, and I am no expert for I am just starting to explore the 12 steps, the 3rd step is simply a decision that that is where we want out life to go. It is steps 4 through 11 that help us get there.

It is not that there will be no lust with that. We are still human with drives. But the compulsive aspect of I think should heal. Caveat always that if we slip, the cycle will start again.