Lipa.bob I did very well in yeshiva while struggling terribly with mast*******n. I was a top bachur in a top yeshiva.

Don't let the Yetzer hora convince you otherwise. Did I achieve my potential? That's for hashem to decide.

It sounds like you are asking conceptually how can a good bachur shteig if he's doing such aveiros.

Or is your problem that you actually can't learn because the images in your head are filling your mind?

lipa.bob wrote on 14 Oct 2012 03:29:


I want you to be a gadol baTorah, too! But I disagree with your timing. I think that blanket rules like that are just a way we make it easier to ignore what must really be done now. And that is a violation of the naturalk law of "al yeitzei ish mimkomo" - reality is not about blanket rules. We all (me plenty) do that at times. But I want to suggest that real avodas Hashem is about doing what you are supposed to do when you are supposed to be doing it. For if you have the keys to the 'inner room', but not the 'outer room' (as Chaza"l put it, v'hameivin yovin), your first chovah is to certainly get the keys to the outer room and not to keep staring at the keys that you already have and cry.

For the person who sees that he is still struggling with the porn and masturbation, the chovah is certainly stepping back and working for a time on getting the basics. Facing and filling in his holes. That may take six months to a year to really get a new way of living that really works, for a change. And isn't that what you are saying you want? Or do you need to have your cake and eat it, too...and right now?

Or are you just wanting to whine for excuses about "nebach, I probably cannot become a gadol baTorah"? If that is it, then what's the point - what are you asking for help with? Whining can be done in the comfort of your own beis midrash.

All I meant was to introduce some humility here. The lust for "becoming a gadol" is a contradiction to the many Chaza"ls that say that Torah is like water and goes to the lowest place - that is can only be given on the lowest mountain, etc. The ambition you speak of is wonderful! But the idea that you demand - and that our G-d demands - that masturbaters and porn users become gedolim without first getting clean and learning how to live that way - well, that is just pride. And it is mainly pride that leads us to depression, not 'poor self-esteem'. Our pride sets us up for demands that we cannot reach or that are not in the right time - then trashes us with accusations of failure...while in reality, we could be great, as you will be, iy"H. But to get there, we need to accept the truth of our real present needs and build the foundation first, then the first floor, etc. Twisted b'nei Torah we have enough of. I meet them often enough when they come to me with their 'zera levatola' problems. You don't need to know from that mess, trust me.

I hope you see that I have nothing but the greatest respect for you. I am hoping you grow the right way, though. That's all.

And a final question for you, chaver:

Does the rebbe or trusted talmid chochom who you are using to help guide you in your seder halimud to grow into a gadol baTorah know all the facts of your masturbation history and problem, or not?

If he does, that's is a segulah for your succes. But if not, then no matter how much of a tzaddik and gadol he is, you are getting poor advice from him. Until he knows all your truth.

- Dov

I must say that your question and the responses have helped me. Thank you

That's great and thanks so much for the feedback and chizzuk. I wonder how lipa.bob sees them, though.

Ah guteh voch (and ah lichtigeh one, too) to all!!

Right on point JustKeepGoing, I feel the same way!!! Rav Lipa.bob THANK YOU. You put out a very important question, for me it's a trigger that gets me down every time and sometimes even so far, that I act out.

I agree, it's baby steps what works best, as in "Rome wasn't build in one day". Of course, one might think, that there is no time to make baby steps. But like the guys said it here: Do we have a choice?

I don't know. Why do we tear ourselves to bits, striving to meet that standard, struggeling inside to then only come out frustrated and nervous? What is that good for? Why do we bother with that?

Well, I don't know. That is why I am thanking you guys.

Let go and let G-d. That would be the right thing to do. But I still don't know how to use that line. What do we do, do we just say it, how do you do it, how do you think away all the expectations of our loved ones, our friends, of our great forfathers Avraham, Yitzack and Yaakov... Hm....

Oy weh, I sure would like to be in that number, when the saints go marching in... Someday, somewhere, somehow, we will all be Tzadikim. Elya will come and he'll say, good work, you stayed sober when the whole world was all upside down, the world was about to fall apart... Ok, sorry, I am an addict and can't believe what I am feeling and writting here. Isn't it just funny that an addict like me, still dares to hope to become Bruce Willis or at least the Meshiach.

Aj, I can see it clearly, I have the same issue. But Dov is right, it's hard to be just a "regular" Jew. And I would really, really like to be just a "regular" Jew for just today, hey just for today! Tomorrow, who knows...

I wish you all the best.

-Michael

yehoshua wrote on 22 Oct 2012 10:46:


If we really put it in His hands, then we do not need to 'think them away'. We let them go without making any sense whatsoever....maybe later on the right-thinking will come to us. It usually does. But as a result of letting it go, and not the other way around. That is the entire point of this business. Like I quoted from a wise alcoholic many times here, "You can't think yourself into right-living. You can only live yourself into right-thinking."

But then you hit the point square-on, Michael...and opened up a can of worms for me, so here goes, be"H:

About just being a 'regular' Jew, the holy Piazeczner Hy"d said in his sad last days in the Warsaw Ghetto, "I have learned deep things and lots of Torah, I have been moser nefesh for lots of mitzvos and suffered a lot to learn Torah of late...but all I ask the Ribono Shel Olam is to help me just be a real Jew! That's the sweetest and best I can ever wish for." That was a holy man who wanted to serve G-d, not himself or his 'image'.

The pain I had when I realized I would not be recognized as one of the gedolim or even as a great talmid chochom of note...was huge. I caught those dreams in yeshivah in EY, and their lack of fulfillment caused me to masturbate my brains out to sweet porn for years! For I knew I was a failure. No matter how much i'd ever learn, I'd never be one of that group. I'd never measure up.

That is not yiddishkeit, and not Torah - even without the masturbation! The reason it led me to needing to masturbate and get all sex-needy, was because the entire thought process was based on self-worship. Dressing up self-worship in Torah ideals does not make it not self-worship. It's childish. And most childish thinking that we carry into adulthood cause major, major trouble.

The sad 'nechama' they teach to the 'baalei batim' is that "it's so nice that you are koveya ittim leTorah, blah, blah, blah"...it doesn't work. It's patently false. The culture still signals the 'baalei batim' that THEY ARE THE LOSERS and just throws them a bone. The inner humiliation of being 'out' drives many good guys to ugly, ugly things. Is Hashem only 'with' the godol? Does he only really love the godol? Saying so is stupid and apikorsus!...but I do not care about that - I do not even care if it is right! I just care that it doesn't work. It is destructive to a precious generation of sweet b'nei Torah! For many people, it's just plain poison.

And saying, "but it has redeeming characteristics, for through that motivation we will produce the few, precious gedolim!" - to me that is a mistake. To me, that is creating a few winners that are only tall because they are standing on the dead bodies of the losers. The mentality just is not worth the cost.

Yes, we need to motivate our youth by telling them "you could be like Moshe rabbeinu if you just try hard enough!" But it's gotta end somewhere. The difference between self-acceptance and losing is not taught in Yeshivah...they just let all the losers fade away in to shtiblach... We do not tell them that 95% of Hashem's yidden can still be real, complete successes as "Shlomo the husband and father who learns every day and works as a dentist". And humility and self-acceptance is frowned upon as some sort of humiliation! That mistake alone, produces or at least fuels many frum raging alcoholics and sex addicts, I believe. It did for me for years.

We do not realize that we are really teaching self-worship...and dreams of grandeur die very hard, indeed.

Sorry for not responding a long time already-that was because I was in Yeshiva, this Shabbos.

There is a din which every Yiddisha kinder knows "Derech Eretz Kadmah Latorah"-erech eretz precedes Torah. Now, say we have a guy who is a great learning-wise - he knows a few Masectos well etc. but acts with no decorum or manners-will you in the right mind say that he should stop learning and sit the whole day working on his middos?!-Chas Veshalom to say such a thing! Rather, he must find some time each day to learn a little mussur and make cheshbonos if he "behaved"-which is the right approach! Plus, Torah which is studied and observed properly is designed to reinforce standards of common decency! As Rabbeinu Yona said: Without Torah, one’s character traits cannot be complete with derech eretz. (Avos, Perek 3)

The same applies with the matters we are dealing with. If a person pushes over the want to become a knowledgeable talmid chacham for a few months and focuses the whole day fixing himself up- nothing will come out of you! An maximum of a hour a day can help but Chas Vechalila to do such a thing!

To all those who asked- I must say whenever I sinned it was on out shabbosim, bein hazmanim, etc. Usually I only sinned on not Toradike moments- "Torah matzeles es haadam min hachet" - of course with a bit of mussur as well as Reb Avrohom Yehushua Tewersky saids!

-Avrohom

lipa.bob wrote on 16 Nov 2012 07:20:


As the Mesillas Yesharim says, cleanliness is similar to mindfulness, the difference is rationalization. There is something that you don't want to see, and that stops you from being clean in that particular area. Usually you don't put your life on hold to do this, however sometimes Hashem puts your life on hold for you just to show you that blind spot. It's called issurim. Some sages in the Talmud asked for issurim for that reason, to see the blind spot. Issurim are disruptive, they do put your life on hold. Recently there was a coach in a major university that got caught molesting boys. You can bet that that man has a clear shot at seeing his blind spot now. But his old life is gone, his life is currently on hold.

Right now the reality is that you secretly believe that being a talmid chacham and taking breaks with porn is the best choice for you. That's right, you have a choice and this is what you believe deep down. To some extent I can help you see the distortions in your view of yourself and reality, but when you have a clearer view you may still decide that this is what you want right now. On the other hand if you keep working hard on your learning and you get married soon, i.e. keep your life moving, then soon you could look over your choices and conclude that you are better off not taking breaks doing porn.

Basically right now you are running your life on telling yourself that you are a great talmid chacham in the making. But this is not the way it's supposed to be. Being a talmid chacham is supposed to be a side effect of the fact that you like to learn, because everything else pales in comparison, and you can't wait to get back to the gemara. Think Rav Yochanan when Reish Lakish died, but on a smaller scale. The reality that you are hiding from yourself is that your learning is not doing that for you. You are stroking yourself mentally with your imagined greatness, but it's not enough pleasure. That's another thing you are hiding from yourself, that you want pleasure, because you stroke yourself by telling yourself that you despise pleasure and this makes you "great." You are not getting the pleasure out of life that you want. So you take these little breaks doing porn. You are just a kid. Keep up the good work and when you have some real pleasures, like a wife and children, a job, or maybe students, you'll be able to turn it around.

And if you really want to be a gadol some day, work on enjoying your learning.

Dear Avrohom,

I am not asking you to do anything at all, and not trying to dissuade you from gadlus in any way. All I am doing is my little part to try and help you not grow to be a gadol baTorah who is secretly still masturbating himself to pornography and fantasies, that's all.

All yiddishe kinderlach (of all ages ) have a dream that all the "Gedolim" are all kedoshim, as well, right? Who becomes "The Gedolim"? Were they always "The Gedolim"? No. They were guys like you, who were machshiv learning and serving Hashem and worked with the right priorities in mind - the RMB"M's shevet Levi. They were teenagers once. They were pretty regular once. And if the future gedolim are masturbating to porn now, pretending that "we all eventually outgrow it, of course," is foolishness. But it's worse, actually...

I am an addict - and I am advocating addicts putting their recovery first, before their marriages (for they will lose them anyhow, if they are not sober), before their jobs (for they will lose their jobs due to lusting anyway), and before their "Torah" (for they will also lose that anyway, through their acting out). I am not saying to stop learning - or to even slow down learning - at all!

But your way is the way to make sure that the future is broken. That the tum'ah has an achizah in the very top of our people, itself. There are already enough scandals of big rabbonim and mashpi'im who have had porn exposure or sexual trysts with women (and men) R"l. May Hashem help these things be isolated and rare. Your way, of putting this work on the back burner is the only 'hope' that tum'ah has, to reach the top. For there will be people very great in learning - who still hide away every now and then with their hands shaking and their breath shallow, desperately looking at porn in that same old trance...and then masturbating themselves in secret. I know addicts over the age of 70 who still do it and can't stop. It does not go away for people just because they get grey beards, or even white. It may not go away by itself - and certainly marriage usually makes the problem worse in the end, not better. If our gedolim in training do not get clean from it today - they will be doing it later, as well.

Have a very good Shabbos, chaver. And BTW, y'yasher kochacho for using your real name, too. It's like a breath of fresh air!

- Dov

I Don't know but it was mashma you held not to focus on the Gadol part....of course I want to stop these bad ways but you gotta focus on the gadol part in you as well!!

Are you in control of your acting out your lust - or is it on control of you?

If you are an addict, then I maintain your derech is a sweet, complacent way to lie to yourself while you destroy your potential while feeling great about 'giving up everything - including your sanity and your tahara - for become a gadol. There is nothing anywhere in the Torah that says you are to even give up being a sane (that is, real) eved Hashem in order to becoem a gadol in Torah. Teenage immaturity tells us that - not Torah.

But if you are not an addict, then none of what I wrote applies to you at all! A Jew has a yetzer hora. A Jew (according to the RMB"M) is able to look at porn once in a while, to masturbate once in a while and to do even worse things - it is wrong, it is destructive, and there is a heavy price - but we can all do these these things. This is what Teshuvah is for - aveiros.

The fact that an addict is doing aveiros is not that relevant - he is in a cyclical pattern that is ruining his avodas Hashem because it is ruining his sanity, relationships, and integrity. That is what is the most relevant, of course. For there is no eved Hashem at all without those things. They are the Derech Eretz.

So are you an addict - or just another yid doing aveiros and trying to stop forever and completely?

Perfection is unrealistic for normal (non-addicted) yidden - even gedolim, of course. And that's why there is Teshuvah.

For addicts, sobriety is the bottom line and has nothing to do with perfection, for they have hurt enough and cannot afford any more. Life starts with sobriety.

Which are you?

The problem is if a bocur leaves these things can he still become a big Talmid Chochom-what shycus all the above???

lipa.bob wrote on 18 Nov 2012 04:28:


Absolutely!

(Maybe not when YOU planned, maybe not when YOU wanted, maybe not the way YOU expected, but but absolutely YES)

dov wrote on 18 Nov 2012 01:45:


With all due respect to you Dov, I disagree with you.

It's true that there different kinds of addicts. There is the guy who has to drag himself to SA meetings because he is now out of a career, out of marriage, and maybe he's even out of his freedom, the judge sent him there. Then there is the man who thinks about sex all day long (there are even stats that all men do this) and then at night he is horny.

To me they are the same in so far as the problem is a manifestation of the same behavior, which is to think about sex to deal with life. They are both dealing with the same issue, the yetzer ha-ra causes both. To be sure the yetzer ha-ra is different in everyone.

I cannot prove that this is the case, but I choose to believe that the Torah is true, and there is nothing other than the Torah, and it seems to me that both cases are seen in the Torah, and pretty plainly too. The first man is the nazir, the second one is the average man. And I find confirmation in the white book, which first says to be an addict your life has to be unmanageable, but later if you answer the twenty questions you could answer yes to most of them even if your still have your job and you still have your marriage.

I wanted to post something else here, but in the end I decided to ask a simple question. Are you interested in being a normal human being, one that has a clear mind and is not full of regret and depression? Or are you interested in being whatever it is (a luster etc.) but the main thing is that you should be called a Talmid Chochom or a Godal Hador?

Secondly do you know how many people in the Jewish history who were in lower places than you have been and still came out to be the great of the generation? I says somewhere (maybe others can help out with footnotes) that the reason why Dovid Hamelech came out of such lowly places (incest between Lot and his daughters, Yehuda and Tamar, Rus and Boaz and his mother wasn’t the real wife not the type of lineage you would expect) and what he did with Bas-Sheva was to put himself in such positions and get out on top to be the Godal of his time, so that even the later generations when they get into such places they should know that it has been visited before by other people and they still got out on top and became the Godal of the generation.

I hope I am on song with the topic and question here. I haven't read from the start but I have been following this post for some time. Yitzchok