gibbor120 wrote on 26 Jan 2012 20:29:

as is his usual way

dov wrote on 24 Jan 2012 17:44:

i did ask this question in person no less than 4 times to 4 different Rabbanim.
The answers i got in order were
1) You need to get married 
2) You need to get rid of the internet
3) You need to talk to your Rav about this
4) You probably won't be able to stop
Anybody who wants to know why none of the answers above work, let me know and i will gladly elaborate.
Guard if you are reading this,  Has any effort been made in educating Rabbanim about our addiction so maybe they can give us some answers that work?  i can't believe i am the only person who ever asked and got such "useful" answers.
Hatzlacha in all things GOOD.
chaimyakov

The answers I got in person were:

1- you really need to learn Tanya (guess who told me that); (~1988)

2- it's not really that bad, others guys do this, too (~1986)

3- you need to explain to your wife to have more and more varied sex with you (from an older chassidish rov); (~1990)

4- you probably need to get to a shrink fast or to a group of men in therapy (~1991)

5- you are seriously ill and need professional help right now (~1995)

Of course, as things got worse as the years went on and I got more desperate for the help - but always hiding behind 'religious' or 'marriage' concerns - I was progressively open about what I really do when I act out. Also, my problem started off as sex with myself (masturbation) and porn in late 80s and early 90's and quickly progressed to much worse stuff after i got married. Much worse. Marriage proved to me that sex with my wife could not possibly solve my problem and I became frantic. More sexual obsession and acting out...with honest, temimusdikeh desperation.

Boruch Hashem for the last two men, especially for the last one. Not that I followed his advice of course!...but about two years later I was ready, and got help by really spilling all the beans in detail to a good shrink (who was a recovering alkie herself), and she gave me a card with an SA contact guy. He became my sponsor and has been it ever since, b"H. That saved my life and continues to be the reason I am still alive today and have a great (but not perfect marriage, family, and avodas Hashem (life).

My wife has told me that the day I got sober was by far a better day in her lifetime than the day we got married. And she does not mean it as an insult. (If she did, it would be pretty funny, but she didn't....)

hey 26yearoldstudent,

I can relate to what you write because although I'm FFB and have never had s**, I am a lust addict and in the past, I used to think to myself many times how I would like to have a girl who is not as messed up as me and is a completely aidel tzaddekes who has never done anything wrong in her life. But then I would think to myself "aren't you being a hypocrite? you've been involved with such disgusting things and you want a wife who know nothing of such stuff and you want to shlepp her into your life?"
More recently, I've completely changed my view and not only am I willing to marry someone who's like me, I want to. What's changed is that I've come to view my struggles in a positive light. I've been on the road of serious recovery for over a year now (I've had ups and downs) and I see how much I've grown. I'm so happy with who I am and who I'm becoming. All those struggle I've pulled through are what make me into who I am today. I am constantly becoming a more beautiful human being.
I don't want to sound pretentious, but I would love to marry somebody who is as strong as me. If she's been through as much as I have and has come through it like I have, she is a powerhouse!
Also, she can relate to me.

I think that in your situation as well, hopefully you're holding at a good place right now and you feel that you can find  the good in the struggles you've been through. If so, realize that there are many amazing women out there who are so amazing precisely because of what they've done and overcome. If you're not holding there yet, hopefully you'll get there soon. When you do, I think you'll realize that all the stuff you did has actually helped you in your growth (post facto).

May you find your zivug Bshaa Tova umutzlachat!

Kidushashem that was beautiful !

alexeliezer wrote on 27 Jan 2012 14:30:

thanks!

wow some beautiful posts indeed, Kiddushe and AE, lovin' it.

The questions has halachic importance in the case of Kohanim (such as myself), since the prior sexual life of the spouse has very specific consequences and even affects offspring!  Amazingly, as far as I know, this halacha is only for the Kohanim, and only applies to certain sexual relations with non-Jews.  Imagine that - a Jewess who has been with 100 other Jews before marriage, can still marry a Kohein!  And if she's been with 1000 non-Jews she can still marry a regular Israeli.  In fact the day of marriage is a Yom Kippur katan of sorts, with fasting, Viduy at minha, etc etc, where everything is renewed and reborn.

Wait a second, halacha?  Is this really about halacha?  No, it's about anxiety, obsession, dwelling, resentment... and knowing the halacha won't help.  This question is about living in a fantasy nightmare, making up a life-situation to distract you from your real avodah in the here and now.

The real problem here isn't about a future wife who doesn't yet exist and whose sexual life is invented by one's imagination, the real problem is about a person using his powers of fantasy to create unnecessary stress and worry in his life.  We are a room full of addicts, a room full of specialists in creating harmful fantasies!!

try this.  Instead of visualizing your future wife and her bitter past, visualize a spiritual bond with someone you love, visualize two souls under a chuppah on the wedding day, visualize surrendering yourself to Hashem's power as he split the Yam Suf, and with the same power, found you a spouse who is your second half!

Visualize yourself as a true Jew living with faith. 

that is beautiful...ontheedgeman wrote on 02 Feb 2012 15:56:

Warning: The following must be taken in context of the above discussion. It is meant for balance, and not as a standard of some kind. Hope that means something here...

Beautiful is nice.

Dried dead flowers are also beautiful. Images of pretty people are also beautiful. And lh' - Torah thoughts that have no effect on our behavior are also beautiful.

So?

Today, right now - what are you and I doing differently - not thinking differently, but doing, in connection with these beautiful ideas?

Beautiful is nice.

The sad thing (for frum addicts) is that in Torah, we are even encouraged to learn sh'lo al m'nas la'asos. For example - pilpul on a blatt for a week is an indispensible part of talmud Torah. I love it. Iyun is the only way I remember and understand the sugyos. What is the chalos of yad is, or what a kinyan really does and when....but it is not directly lema'aseh. It is Torah l'shem yediyas machshevos HaBorei yisborach.

And that's great. A good vort at the Shabbos table, it gives us a high, is definitely a good thing and should be encouraged...and where does it go? Not necessarily anywhere, really. And that is OK.

But that is very poor practice for recovery. It kills it, actually. Reveling in nice thoughts is the opposite of recovery, for recovery is only gotten through action. In contrast, Torah scholarship is attained through thinking and reading and being an expert on the subject. Recovery is only through experience. (And I am not talking about 'kinyan Torah', so don't go there. That's a deeper madreigah in Talmud Torah than what we all know as "a boki in [whatever]".)

Recovery is just realer, saner, living, for an addict. Using tools ingloriously. There is little, if any glamour. And real life is change - not familiarity, growth - not the slop of lusting fantasy. Recovery is not made out of 'good, geshmakeh vorts', is not about 'beautiful', and not a high. Inspiration is unecessary for it. It is real: sometimes comfortable, often uncomfortable, sometimes really hurts.

In hindsight it is always a tremendous joy to behold.

But it really is the only act in town, for an addict. Everything else but recovery (however you define it) is a waste of time. That's why we do it, no? Not because it's nice or uplifting - but mainly because anything else we make and do with our lives, sucks.

How's that for balance?

Now, back to the beautiful, sweet, inspirational vorts.

Just please do not confuse them with recovery.

Dov, nice one. I defer (for now) to the grandmaster (you) in these matters.  Also, because I have not fully recovered from my compulsive and obsessive sexual thoughts, so I guess that discredits me off the bat.

Can I only humbly submit that the "beauty" of which we speak here is an aspect of the 12th step, i.e. "a spiritual awakening" we got as a result of practicing the steps... so, do not read "Beauty", rather, read "spiritual awakening".  Hence, the true perception of beauty only comes as a result of working the steps, of doing, as you say.

How's that for pilpul.  ;-)

Dov,
I agree with every word you said.
But this thread, at least as far as we know, isn't about recovery.
I say "as far as we know" because the original poster hasn't shared any personal info about addiction.
So we're enjoying being free to express ourselves regarding a topic that is dear to us (females ) without invoking recovery talk.
That's all.
Love your posts,
Alex

Hey thanks Alex, good point.  Now i retract my defering to Dov and defer to Alex. (i'm not a loyal subject, what can you do)

I defer to both of you. In fact, I defer to almost anyone but myself in most matters...and good point, sir Alex. I got on my soap box and simply couldn't get off, it seems!

but Dov,
you really got me thinking, even if your comments were in the wrong place. I realize that I have been confusing recovery with inspiration and your comments have made me realize that it's all about action.

Thanks!

Chuck said, "We can't think ourselves into right living. We can only live ourselves into right thinking." He was not pontificating, darshening, whatever. It was his bitter hard-learned experience that he was sharing, like what I write here on the forum.

It's the only humble way. Na'aseh venishma is humility, not a madreiga of some sort. And in recovery, it seems that it is the guy who still needs to be controlled by his seichel, not doing anything that he does not first clearly understand, who cannot get better. It's gayvoh dressed in frumkeit, nothing else. If looking at porn made so much sense to us, then I'd agree with him. But the sad fact for most of us is that after we flop, we are often shocked as to how "that could possibly have happened to me!l" His'alalti - it makes fools out of us, complete fools. Our habit plays with us - yet the ha'ozah that we can only take actions of recovery that make sense to us is so prevalent!  Gevalt. Suddenly we are sensible when it comes to changing - new territory we expect to make peace with? Gevalt. That's never the way it works.