Hi everyone,

I can see that this is a wonderful forum that you have here, and I am glad to be a part of it from now on.
I am going to try and use 'lashon naki' throughout this post but just so there are no misunderstandings: When I say shmiras habris, which i like to shorten to sb, or simply it, or the problem etc I mainly mean the aveira of masturbation.
My story in short (sort of short but if you can bear with me I would very much appreciate it):

Ages 14-17:
I guess I the issue really started when I first discovered my body and although I come from a frum family, I was actually unaware that it was assur until due to chance, I ended up browsing through an English copy of kitzur shulchan aruch (which was basically my only non human source of torah halacah etc that i could understand, since it is translated into English) and although I was looking for something else the topic of sb caught my eye and i was literally like, "WHAT?! And the author says its equivalent to MURDER?!?!?" Anyway although I found it hard to stop at that age (I must have been around 14) I imposed certain roadblocks(email or pm me for details if you want) and over the years of 14 to 17 I certainly had a clean stretch of about a year give or take(at some point) with all the in between times usually being punctuated by a falling down and then a feeling of oh no! what have i done and then going on strong for a while.

Age 17:
Then due to my own immaturity and perhaps the stresses of my final 2 years in high school (at age 17 or so) taking me away from more intense Torah study I somehow came to the conclusion that it was in fact not actually forbidden by halacha (it is) but rather a sort of chumra (its totally not a chumra!) or something (I'm not sure exactly what i can tell them in shamayim later as to my "heter" since the yetzer hara's Lomdus is never glatt it is usually vague and emotional based) so for the next 2 years I pretty much freely did what i wanted in this area.

Age 18:
I went to yeshiva in Israel and there was one rabbi there who i was close to that was not at all "afraid" to talk about sb and so it was through him that I started feeling a little guilty again over what i was doing. By Elul of that year (i am the type of person who gets all anxious during elul and starts fretting and thinking about things a lot) instead of my default mode which was the following thought process: "Rav C said that this is one issue which is really important to work on,but whatever I don't think i am on that 'level' now so its fine" I started actively challenging the impulse. Now this part I thought would be easier since I had already done this step before (refer to 'age 13' above) and so what I wasn't prepared for was the fact that I remembered stopping when i was 14 was sort of easy in a way, what i mean is that although it was uncomfortable and quite hard it never got to a point where I just physically could not hold myself back but this time it was so hard.
I guess as i am typing up my story (and this is the first time ever i should add) this reason popped up. When I was 14 and stopped, I was quite young and my hormones were probably only just starting out at that point, but now at age 18 was the first time that my hormones were in full swing and yet i was trying to stop, also I had a series of years of habit from 17-18 to undo.
Anyway back to my story: I didn't know how to deal with this issue fully. I just sort of approached it the cold turkey type way once i decided that it really was assur, but I don't think that  have ever had a stretch of more than around 6 weeks where I consistently never did it.

Age: 19-21.5 (which is now): The last few years takes us to right now, and although I have been trying, I have never tried, nor been aware of any system other than the "Well its assur so don't do it ever, and if you do you need to do teshuva"-system. I decided to join this forum since I just found out about it and the last time I tried searching the Internet for advice in this area is in 2008 (when i was 18), and at that point these holy forums never even existed.

One big area that I feel is insurmountable is that often if I haven't done it in a few days (like 10) then I will go to sleep at night and fall asleep and then at some point in the night I would wake up and being half awake and having little willpower I would do it while lying right there and then go back to sleep. Sometimes I wouldn't always have a full recollection/memory of if i even did it, which makes it even harder to stop since it practically feels as if sometimes I don't have any free will in the matter. I mean how can you stop doing something you can't control and possibly don't even recall. Just to be clear on this issue, I am not having what is known as a nocturnal emission, which is something different, I am actually causing it myself. If anyone else has this problem please let me know via a reply to this post or a pm/email if you don't feel comfortable discussing it in the forum itself so that I know that i am not the only one facing this particular aspect of this challenging area, and also so we can talk strategy.


A side point; for food for thought is that have any of you holy members of the olam noticed that this issue is made so much worse by the fact that the rabbeim of our generation are so afraid of the awkwardness of this that they rather spend all their time teaching us other areas of the Torah which, although are avada very important for every Jew to know, should have been given second preference over teaching this very pressing issue to young barmitzvah age boys. I mean I was totally unaware that it was assur to begin with, never mind the necessary guidance to conquering the challenge.

Hi Gothika,
Welcome to our community, you have finally come home!

We're all in the same boat here. Tzuras Rabim Chatzi Nechama   Once you've arrived, there's no turning back. Everyone here will just grab a hold of you and pull you up with them!

GYE Program in a Nutshell: (Right Click the link and press "Save Link/Target As" to save the PDF file to your computer).

'Guard Your Eyes' offers a unique approach to helping people by recognizing that there are many different levels in the struggle for "Shmiras Ainayim" and "Shmiras Habris". After studying the experience of hundreds of religious strugglers over the past few years, we put together the suggestions and recommendations that we feel are best for the various levels. We divided the tools, features and services that GYE offers into 8 different levels. This "GYE Program in a Nutshell can help people quickly identify at what level of the struggle they are at, and which tools and features would help them most at their particular level.

Here are some quick things you can do to help you jump straight into recovery:

1) Make sure to install a strong filter. It will be almost impossible to break free of this while having all the garbage within a mouse click away. See this page for one good filter option, along with instructions on how to install it best – and give away the password to our "filter Gabai"… See this page for another 20 (or so) filter ideas and information… We also highly advise installing "Reporting Software" such as webchaver.org to give you some accountability, because filters alone are usually not sufficient and they can often be bypassed.

2) Join the daily Chizuk e-mail lists to get fresh chizuk every day.

3) Scientific studies have shown that it takes 90 days to change a neural thought pattern that was ingrained in the brain through addictive behaviors. Did you join the 90 day chart on-line? Sign up over here.

4) Post away on this forum! You will get tons of daily Chizuk and support. This disease can't be beat alone. It works best when you get out of isolation!

5) GuardYourEyes also offers many free anonymous phone conferences where you can join a group of other frum Yidden, along with an experienced sponsor. See www.guardyoureyes.org > Tools > Phone Conferences for many different options. Our conferences are taking place every day, morning, noon and night… Joining a phone group would be a tremendous step in the right direction for you and help you learn freedom from this addiction. Not only will you learn the secret of the 12-Steps – which is known to be the world's most powerful program for beating addiction having helped millions world wide, but the daily call will be another way of GETTING OUT OF ISOLATION and connecting with others who are going through what you are.

6) If you need more general guidance, write to our e-mail helpline at gye.help@gmail.com or call our hotline at 646-600-8100.

7) Download and read the "Guard Your Eyes Handbook". This handbook outlines the GYE approach in detail, and makes our network much more effective and helpful for people. The handbook has two parts:

A) The first part, "Attitude & Perspective", details 30 basic principles to help us maintain the proper attitude and perspective on this struggle. Here are some examples: Understanding what we are up against, what it is that Hashem wants from us, how we can use this struggle for tremendous growth, how we can deal with bad thoughts, discovering how to redirect the power of our souls, understanding that every little bit counts, learning how to bounce back up after a fall, and so on and so forth…

The second part, "The 18 Tools", detail suggested tools and techniques, in progressive order, beginning with the most basic and fundamental approaches to dealing with this addiction, and continuing down through increasingly earnest and powerful methods. No matter what level our addiction may have advanced to, we will be able to find the right tools to break free in this handbook!

May Hashem be with you!

Welcome.

You have come to the right place.

Post away and make new friends. You will enjoy the ride.

Welcome!  You have all the resources you need here, and tons of friends and people that care about you.  You are on the right path my friend.

Wow i can't believe anyone actually read my story let alone took the time to reply to me. If you have time I would so very much appreciate it if you could read my posting about a particular aspect of my problem at this board as soon as you can: http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4309.0

Thank you so much HolyYid and gibbor120!

I am glad you are touched. I remember when I joined GUE (now GYE) I too was shocked that people cared enough to respond.

We who have these struggles often do not know how to trust others and Hashem, we don't think other people or Hashem care about us. One of the biggest shocks of this site is that people do care about us and we can trust them.

Does any of thing resinait with you?

Yes I totally had all those feelings, I had the sense that I was the only one who had to deal with this issue.
i got the sense that there were two categories within people that I knew of dealing with this.
1) The people who rationalised that it was not assur to m* and 2) The other group who were like, "Well if its assur then I obviously will never do it ever, and there is no shaila at all, its just like breaking shabbos or eating trief food, I would never even think of doing that!" and I thought that from that desision of theirs, that is exactly what they did. Without any sips, or falls whatsoever they just stopped (or never even started to begin with)

So I thought, "Well where does that leave me? I certainly want to stop, but it is just too difficult, and how exactly do i stop? Who can help, no-one from the above groups could, either they don't care (1) or it seems so easy for them (2) and my rabbi that i was close to had to move away for various reasons and so that leaves just me, alone, disappointing Hashem all the time with no clear path forward!"

I also felt that if i would ever open up to someone, like a friend or a rabbi, and since I haven't met another rabbi exactly like rabbi C to speak to, whoever I did approach would instantly judge me and they would just say, "Thats gross, how could you do such a thing, would you ever think of eating trief?!" and then they would never look at me ever again without thinking that they know what i did. (and i know according to the torah one should care so much about what other people think of you etc and one should be humble, but I am not so humble and I do fuss over what others think.

But now I have a huge book to read on the topic (the handbook) this whole daily chizuk email list thingy, other people to share advice and discuss slip ups with etc etc. It is like an actual dream.

The temptation is also everywhere in todays world, Computers-Desktops, Laptops, iPhones, Blackberry's, Androids, Palm, Billboards, perfume advertisements (which are shocking, I mean honestly what are they actually selling? A fragrance or something else? Its honestly hard to tell!), ALL the magazines next to the chocolates at the checkout, the people walking around in the street, do I need to list more? thats why the picture for GYE is so accurate with the tightrope across the skyline.

Where was i going with this again? Oh right, now that I have opened up to someone, it feels like an actual load is of my shoulders and I know that I have a path, so I don't have to depair, in fact I am no longer allowed to use that as an excuse.
Thanks for listening HolyYid!

Keep us posted on your progress!

Happy for you nebula!
it's great to see that you are not the only yid with these issues
i felt the same way before i came here
b'h there is a wonderful group of people here who help and support each other with love and understanding
you too will add a lot, i am sure

btw, what's behind your screen name? it sounds interesting

Hey ZmirosShabbos, after browsing around the forums for a while I have seen how much you have helped others that post here all the time, and due to the anonymous nature of GYE, I am think that no one in your daily life even knows of the chesed that you perform here (which is the best type of chesed, if I am not mistaken) so I am very excited that you also decided to pop by my introduction board (and two times at that, since you gave me the official welcome posting).

I certainly aspire to help others here if I can, and also to receive the help that I need in getting though this.

And Regarding my screen name... YHPM  8)

:-[ :D
thank you for your kind words
btw, the vife and my good friend and chavrusa of 10 years as well as many friends from gye who i know personally all know of my gye 'activities' so i have no need to duck into a phone booth to change before i post

if anyone is helped by my postings it would be my greatest pleasure and zechus.
and i really like your screen name (sometimes i think my kids do too, they seem to have an attraction to mud pies )

NebulaMud wrote on 16 Aug 2011 12:34:


Two things strike me in what you write here and above:

1- you are saying that opening up to someone has lifted a weight from off your shoulders and that's good; and

2- this was the first time you actually ever tried to commit your story to writing.

Both these things you wrote are yesodos I cannot survive without - and they do not get 'used up'! It is essential for me to remember what so many other people completely forget:

the stuff that started to get me better is what I need more and more of if I am to continue getting better.

Too many here get honest and  spill (what they feel at the time is) 'all the beans'. Then they discover they get at least a bit of a holiday from their lust and feel 'lifted', or healthier, in some way.

But then they figure they have reached a certain madreigo - not that they are tzaddikim, but that they are somehow 'above' the awkward and sometimes painful sharing of their weakness stupidity with others. Sometimes they sincerely feel they are ready to teach others now - not by pontificating, but by example. Sounds like a nice idea, no?

But it's their downfall - our downfall. "Once we are setting an example, we cannot still seem screwed up, can we? If I play with lust sometimes, it's better not admit that right on the forum any more - it'd give the wrong idea to the 'newer guys' out there - might make them think this stuff doesn't work, chas v'Sholom...."

That attitude would be horrible for me, for it is how I got so messed up in the first place. I hid things about me from the important people in my life for various reasons like that! (Like: wait while I 'work on it'; she doesn't really need to know - it'll hurt her so badly; now we are finally getting along well, why ruin it all today?; Now I am really trying, besides, it happened a whole month ago...a week ago....a day ago....an hour ago...?, etc.) And I believe it is one of the big reasons for people falling so much here, and in SA, and in AA, and everywhere else. Keeping it to ourselves turns out to be just another sneaky way of protecting our ability to keep playing around with it. One thing I have learned about myself is that - though I may not realize I am doing it - I always try to protect what is precious to me. And if acting out were not precious to me, I would not keep doing it all those years!

So if I really am an addict, then I must freely admit it to other safe people. If I do not, then I will not actually be admitting it to myself and I will eventually act out my lust again and again, and die from my problem (after it takes every good thing in my life and turns it into trash). But here is the trick:

I must KEEP admitting it freely to safe people. Every opportunity I get I do. That is why AA and SA meetings begin with introductions: "Hi, my name is ____ and I am a sexaholic." There have been times that I have only been able to come to a meeting for a minute and then leave - but I made it my business to just say that to the entire meeting. Hearing myself say that keeps me attached in a healthy way to Hashem, my wife, my children, and everybody else. It keeps me sane.

Those true addicts who are disgusted with the title of "addict", will keep running from it (while they keep masturbating and looking at porn in their shame) and to them I say, "good luck!"

But not me. Today, so far, I have been allowed by Hashem to be sober now, for over 14 years through the help I got from fellow hopeless addicts in SA. And I hope He keeps blessing me with sobriety the rest of this day. I will not ask him for a sober month on Rosh Chodesh, and will not ask Him for asober year om Rosh haShanah/Yom Kippur. Doing that is foolishness for me, for it is only one day at a time and that is my relationship with Him and everyone else. I try to do today's job today and tomorrow's job tomorrow. And that is another indispensable yesod for me.

So keep on doing what helped you in the first place, until your life here is over ad meiah v'esrim (if you want to be clean till then!): admit your weakness, your fears, your pride, and your addiction to safe people, and  keep writing, journaling my feelings is so powerful. Not because anyone else ever reads it - they don't. But because writing gets it out of me in a safe way, so the deepest truth about me comes out, to my frequent surprise. And if recovery is not a surprise to me, then it cannot be real recovery.

Take what you like and run with it, amigo! No charge.

dov wrote on 29 Aug 2011 17:34:

Wow the heilige dov from the chizuk emails, I am at a loss for words! I am honored by your presence on my intro board. Thank you for the advice. To be honest I guess I was feeling a bit removed from my problems, I have been keeping a log, on the wall of honor www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4320.0">over here but even over there, I think that my updating was getting a bit sloppy, and I kid you not because you must be a mind reader I had that exact thought process about the "wrong idea to the newer guys out there" just earlier, so I hope to nip that in the bud then.

I have noticed that theme of still being an addict even 14 years later even in your daily dose of dov thingy, and I think that I have tried to internalize that, and its not an insult, its just reality, if I was once an addict, I will always be that, I can either ignore that and risk falling, or face it and give myself a shot at winning! This emphasis that you have made about getting to terms with the fact that one cannot be a temporary addict makes me all the more confused since your posting www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4347.0">over here seems to completely contradict this! Over there you said the following


The case over there seems to be exactly this, the fact that our dear friend over there once had a problem does not mean that he is beyond it now. Yes his behaviour lately is nothing but amazing, with all the growing that he has clearly done, and the amazing talmid chacham that he is clearly becoming, and the seriousness of his avodas hashem etc, I don't need to list any more qualities of greatness that he clearly displays but nevertheless, if he once had a problem, doesn't that mean he still has that problem, and to ignore it could C"V lead to as you said


It sounds like you believe that no matter how great you become and how far you are from where you once were, there is no ex-addict! Please could you clarify what you mean here and there, because right now I am rather confused. Addict or no?

Sorry this is another long megillah. But it's your fault You wrote:
NebulaMud wrote on 29 Aug 2011 20:01:
A few things I need to clear up about what I believe. And I am not asking anyone else to agree, just clearing the air because confusion messes up our connection.

1- I do not believe there is such a thing as a "winner", per se, with an addiction, and I do not typically use the term. Rather, I believe that I can live one day at a time in more and more freedom from the tyrrany of lust. And also that I can be allowed by Hashem to live a miracle: I can be sober till I die. All I need to do is let Him. That was what I was not doing all those years I was struggling to not do zera levatolah, to not lie to my family, later to my wife, etc. All those years were poisoned with ego. Hashem was my Superman, and I was his failing and pathetic servant - always struggling to achieve that 'greatness' of being tahor. It all sounds nice...but it did not work for me. And it still doesn't. I wrote about that in my very first post on GYE (really an email to Guard) about two and a half years ago.

And what would a "winner" be? A person who has the power to use only a bit of porn or lust without 'going all the way'?

"No, no, no, dov, you don't understand, at all! That's not at all what we mean by that! We mean a person who never uses porn, always sees women as real people and not sex objects, and is only sexual with their wives in a healthy and happy way. That's what we want. Oh - and who has a burning desire for Hashem instead of for the rear-ends of the shiksas on the subway....and can shower without ever getting an erection...and never fantasizes sexual stuff nor is ever driven to use porn, then comes to a wet dream at night c"v.... - - - - -anything else on the shopping list?

That is not humility, but the height of gayvoh. And so many of the innocent sweet and pure yidden here expect this of themselves from day one! Do they understand that the habit they built for years or even decades is actually part of their lives? Do they understand how their avodas Hashem would probably fall apart completely if they really changed into non-lusters today? They do not see how their habit is part of their relationship with Hashem. The extremes of: "Take me baaack!" - and then - the ectasy of purity and kedusha! The deveikus! The see-saw we all know as frum yidden. Most of us grew into manhood and into our serious yiddishkeit together with this problem. And we are so prideful to imagine they are really separate? That our yiddishkeit as we approach it has been one of the major feeders of our addiction? Come on. Our yiddishkeit is twisted in some fine way. It must be. For if it was not, why did we need to masturbate and do porn so much all these years? But I digress, as usual.

The expectations of our tzidkus above, I see as nothing more than a prideful list of things that we expect Hashem to do for us. As righteous as it all may sound, that is not avodas Hashem, but avodas atzmi. "I want to be a tzaddik, not a Rosho!" Pure gayvo. And I will have no part of it, be"H. Not because I am a good guy, but because it does not work for me!

I want what Hashem gives me. Sure, lusting in any of those ways above causes me pain and makes me crazy and useless - and that is why I do not want them. I want to live. And the biggest requirement of living that recovery is teaching me is: living life on lifes (we say Hashem's) terms. It is the essence of hachno'oh. That is, surrender. It is mesiras Nefesh - giving over myself to Hashem. Not because He is so great, but because I can't make it without Him. My addiction proved that to me more than anything else did.

2- I do not believe that most guys - even frum guys - who use porn and masturbate, are addicts. You use the terms interchangably. I do not. I believe that an addict is a person who cannot stop. He looks at his life and history and decides that he has already lost. It is not hard for him to remain clean and have a good, happy, and useful life - but it is impossible. He sees that his lusting behaviors drag him out of the real world. Not just because the kitzur or his rov or Hashem says that his behaviors are so bad, but because that's what happends to him - his life is being ruined by it. he davens and his G-d is not saving him. He just is not making it for years and years and he has the humilty to accept that he has lost and will only lose more. he often does not see it until after marriage, because so many of us really believe that being able to finally have sex with a woman will 'take the edge off' and give us control of our drug. Then we get married and after a short time discover that it only makes it worse! Sadly, that makes a lot of decent, good addicts lose faith in Chaza"l. For didn't they teach us that a woman makes you happy? A whole person? That he will finally have pas besalo and that "a wife is matzilaso min hacheit"?

I went to a good rov for advice about my porn problem and my being so painfully unsatisfied with sex with my wife, and he actually (100% innocently) advised me to explain to her that she must have sex with me more often and do more positions and other stuff as I wanted her to. He was operating in a simple world, and was european. He simply did not understand that sexual abstinence would actually draw us closer than my sex would. He thought that my hunger could be satisfied by a real women, after being trained for years in fantasy women. Ha. (Of course, I went home and told her that and she was not very happy....and it did not work to help me, either.)

So, when I say I am not so sure that fellow is really an addict, I mean just that. He may have a porn and even a habit of having sex with himself (you call it masturbation), but that does not mean he is a loser to lust as I am. The Yetzer Hora of most men for sex and porn actually has very little to do with addiction, really. Addiction does not respond well to the normal tools for fighting the YH. Hey, that's why it is not working for some people. If the guy in that post is not an addict, why try to brainwash him that he is? I don't get it. Is it misery loves company? He will not be helped by these tools. And even if he could be helped by them - if they do not ring true in his opwn heart, he will fail. He will not use them.

The 1st step is a admission of me being a loser. Unmanageable by me, and a loser to lust. The 2nd step is an admission of having some insanity, and of needing a miracle to regain that sanity. The 3rd is giving myself into Hashem's trusted care. Why should I do that if I still think that by my hard tefillah and my strong  eisek baTorah I will purify myself enough to merit freedom from ly lust problem? That person does not really need G-d! He needs his siddur and a gemorah - and he knows exactly how to use both.

And that approach apparently works OK for normal people - even frum ones! Somehow they do not get twisted and keep Hashem really in there. I (and many addicts, apparently) get all screwed up (and end up acting out). I lose Hashem quite easily. Sure, Sheim Shomayim shagur be'fi...but that's not enough. If I was really with Hashem, then how did I always end up sneaking a peek at the dirty magazine? It was so very deeply precious to me - my hands were shaking with anticipation, my breath shallow - you all know exactly what I mean cuz youv'e all been there! How did I end up masturbating (with great guilt, fear - and excitement) on that bathroom floor? Why was it so predictable? How did I do it again?! Where was Hashem? Did I really feel He was taking fine care of me? But then why did I need to take the job into my own hands? Any addict who uses lust is saying, "G-d, I know You are really great. But since I obviously feel in my very gut that I really, really need this, and You say I can't have it/do it! I am really sorry, but I am trusting myself rather than you to take good care of me. Pardon me, but You apparently do not realy know what You are doing. I know how to take good care of myself, here's how..." And since that is what is really going on for us in acting out, I do not blame the poor guy who goes ahead and acts out. He is sick in the head. That means me - I am sick in the head when I act out. But the chiddush to me in recovery is that the reason we act out is because we are twisted in the head. The AAs say that our problem is an a=obsession of the mind and an allergy of the body. We are really sick.

We need G-d - not our brains - to save us. Our brains and our bodies are the sick things that got us in this mess to begin with, and they will not get us out. So action is the solution, not more thinking. And the rest of the steps are about action. Na'aseh first, for addicts, then nishma - we get our heads screwed on straight by taking the right actions. Posting is nice, but it is not really taking enough action - it is a big machlokess whether dibur is asiyah or not! (derech tzachus, there). Take action, and more action...hatzlocha!

(If you want to understand better what I mean by "losing Hashem quite easily" look for the post about the midrash about the three malchei Yisroel who acted three different ways in wartime.) 

   

Dov,
there are so many fine, agreeble points you made in your megilla above. I had a similar experience with making my pure wife try and satisfy my craziness. And I DID come into the manhood and serious Yiddishkeit hand in hand with masturbation and dirty pictures.
What I don't understand is: practically speaking, are you saying that as long as I keep fighting I'll keep losing? That I need to give up a fight, and give it over to Hashem, and then He will MIRACULOSLY take me by the hand and lead me to the light? I just don't get the practical application.
Would love to keep on probing but my internet is shutting down (Thank the AL-mighty filter) so please just indulge me this short question.