i heard a good vort from reb akiva tatz

reshaim bichayehaim kruin maisim

goyim are so unalive

that only way they realize thaey are alive is

by bungee jumping  skydiving etc

meaning when they are an inch from death

uhhhh ich lebb



mottel not happy with u being a gentelman

zull der behaima ariosgain in azz du bist a  duuss bist du a dusss

gevaldig vort about feeling alive, rebbe b

the ending of the gentleman story is great, obormottel. whether and how much of a gentleman you should have been and whether you should have said that you suffer from hyperpyrosentia and never came within 2 feet of matches is a good question

OK, so a few things. "Lo siten lohem chein" halachically means that we gain nothing from the deal, correct?

But who says it is for nothing in return?

The entire point here is that I get a gift of sobriety and peace of mind by praying for the people I am lusting after, mad at, want to strangle, or am afraid of. And I get it. So I am benefitting from my gift. If they also benefit, then who is to cry? Hashem is giving them life and plenty brocha (indirectly), who am I to want them to have no brocha of any kind? And if, as you say, "but it has been doing wonders for me lately" then I guess you are using these human b'riyos of Hashem for your own benefit just as He wants you to.

But it needs to be sincere. And you already know that it works...if we let it.

And while I am on the subject of "b'riyos", don't you also mean goyim when you say to Him "Boruch merachem al hab'riyos" and "Yismach Hashem b'ma'asov" every morning? OK, so maybe your particular hashkofa (and there are differences in rishonim and acharonim on this) prefers to see Hashem's Chessed and nachas from the goyim specifically in spiritual matters, not in any phyiscial brocha or tov. For example, the goyim all coming to their own tachlis as our perfected chitzoniyus (as in "v'noharu eilov kol hagoyim" in the time of moshiach, b"b). So, what's wrong with davening for a goy's spiritual development into a man or woman who recognizes and believes in his or her Creator as the Nosein haTorah? To whine about chillul Hashem among goyim "Oy, what a shanda that it should be in the paper that Rabbi so-and-so molested children!" - implies that it matters what the goyim say and think about Hashem and His people! Why does it matter!? Is it for our kavod? Surely not. It must be for Hashem's kavod...but then why does it matter what is going on with a goy's faith in Hashem and His Torah?

Ella what - clearly Hashem wants the spiritual growth of goyim, too. It is childish and silly to retreat into some blind and dark mishega'as that "all Hashem really considers good for goyim le'osid lavo is for "all those evil goyim to see their folly (Ha!) and be punished!" Yeah, yeah, they deserve something...but G-d is b a lot bigger than that. Their hakorah is what He wants. He 'wanted' it from the mitzrim by yam suf and He will want it b'acharis hayomim, too, from the bad people among the goyim. 

But it is clear that davening for a goy to be granted true spiritual inspiration from Hashem to live rightly as a goy is a great mitzvah and well in line with the tikkun of the future. So why not ask Him for it for them today? Especially since you and I end up laughing all the way to sobriety, sanity, and peace of mind!

And, as generally when I daven for myself it is only for spiritual and mental help (see the first brocha in Sh"E, and also the 11th step which we addicts try hard to put into action), when I daven for a woman I am lusting after 99% of my tefillah is (and always has been) for "their spiritual connection with You, Tatty. Please, please help her  know the truth of Your Beauty and Your Goodness, that everything valuable in their lives only comes from You, and not be fooled by false people who will use them!" I sincerely hope that nobody is used and trashed as these women most often, are. It is tragic, even if they seem to bring it on themselves - it is a sick, painful and tragic thing, to live out this huge gift of life in a trash can of depravity and confusion about what has real value and what is just a show. It really is.

Final point, be"H. And as painful as it is, I must write this; and I am not criticizing anyone in particluar, least of all any of you c'v. I love you guys, every one. I am just illustrating a point. Imagine: If it was a regular weekday, and you witnessed a man apparently abduct a 10 year old goyishe boy into his car, what would you do? Would you not care? Would you not try like crazy to save or help that boy? Would you not care of the pain of his parents? Of his horror before possible death? Or are the only real emotions Jewish ones? Are we turned into animals now, who see no pain in the suffering of those who are not in our family? Rachmonim - is a sign that we are Jews. A yid who says that "Rachmonim" only applies to Jewish people who are suffering, is nothing but a sheigetz, to me. And I believe that the Sh'chinah hak'dosha would 'run' from such a person k'borei'ach min ha'eish.

Everybody has suffering in life, and everybody dies. And dying is not pretty, at all. Plenty of our suffering is the result of our poor choices in life. We all need protection from bad influences, from stupid decisions, and from having sick thinking that unecessarily paints our lives in ways that make life seem a horrible thing. What harm is there in having rachmonus on the goy I am lusting after - for the needless suffering he or she might feel? What is wrong about me davening for Hashem to spare this person from unecessary suffering and pain due to deyos kozvos, sick thinking, and terrible mistakes in life?

OK, enough out of me. Sorry it was a megillah.

dont look
dont daven
just truck along

vayter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reb Bardichev, simplicity has its ma'alois and its chesroinois. 'nuf said.
Dov, as always, very eloquent and very enlightening, though not entirely to the point.
I didn't have such deep kavonois for their spiritual awakening etc when I said G-d bless this shiksa I'm lusting after, just perhaps that their physical needs be met in a blessed way.
As for saving a goyishe kid etc, there was once a Jew in Brooklyn who saved a black woman from being stabbed and then drove her to the hospital, bleeding all over his car just in time to save her life. When a reporter asked him why he did it, after all there were other people of her race there etc, he said: I did it because we and ,l'havdil, they are the same thing.
So it's possible to feel elef alfei havdolois apart and still care for the other person's wellbeing.
I was more curious of what the sages of this forum thought of halachic ramifications of praying G-d Bless a goy.
I am certainly planning to laugh all the way to sobriety^tm, and if praying on any shiksa's behalf will get me there, you can count on me doing just that.

mottel i am with you & dov, but my love to bard is too strong, so i am not going to mix in

bardichev wrote on 07 Sep 2011 21:00:

I think I heard the same shiur, and I heard it from R Noach Weinberg z"l as well.  I think they were referring to Jews as well.  We are all unalive to a greater or lesser degree.

One added  point that I think R Tatz mentioned is, let's say a person is in the hospital with a terminal illness.  They are on their death bed.  Then miracle of miracles they heal and their illness vanishes.  They will walk out of the hospital dancing.  Why?  They did not have any positive experience.  They just "didn't die".  Because THEY FEEL ALIVE.  Feeling alive in itself is the biggest simcha. If we could just feel alive (wihout having to almost die, or simulate it by bunjee jumping etc.) We would always be besimcha!

I'll leave the prescription for "feeling alive" for the chachomim on this forum.

Since I was about 13 years old, the one thing I discovered that I could do whenever I wanted to really feel alive and really connected, was to masturbate to a really good fantasy.

Eventually, it became the most deadening force in my life. So I had to quit. Of course, I still could not, so Hashem eventually helped me, and here I am, still growing freer, thanks to sex addicts who He keeps using to help me.

Just wanted to share that, so it would explain exactly why I generally don't give guys chizzuk and azhora to "resist fantasizing and masturbating". How could it possibly make any real sense to a guy who literally worships the porn women and the orgasms (cuz he keeps turning to them religiously), to tell him that "They are evil, you are better off not doing it. Trust me." Such talk is completely contrary to everything their experience is teaching them. It's like saying, "Trust me. Red is really green. Now go cross the street and have a nice day."

I needed to suffer the very real pain of following my gut and lusting - in order to learn and accept that all that my very insides were telling me was a big lie. Nobody but nobody couls have ever concvinced me of that.

To say it, yes. Hey, we are frum, no? We gotta tow the party line, right?! But to really believe it and be ready to give it up? No way. It's just too precious to us, that's why we keep turning to it. That's it.

Thanks.

dov wrote on 08 Sep 2011 16:28:

I found that on my personal level Dov is right. I had to really find myself OUT OF CONTROL and getting worse in order to really believe that I must get help in order stop. No, scratch that. To believe that I must stop. And then get help.
But is there really no such thing as a plain old yetzer horo, the one every man is born with, the normal human desire to feel good, and what better way to do it than masturbating?
So frum men do it , too. So their faith is external/ extraneous. They just need to internalize their faith, and what they know to be right and wrong, and they will stop pleasuring themselves. I had friends in yeshiva who swore they hadn't touched themselves since they learnt it was ossur. I believe them.
I let my problem exacerbate, I've been compulsively pleasuring myself every time I felt inadequate or hurt, maybe there are some deeper sickological^tm reasons for my addiction. But for most men who masturbate it's just a bad habit, which can be broken, with some effort like all bad habits.
We don't prescribe 12 steps for quitting smoking, or going on a diet for EVERYONE? JUST THOSE WHO CAN'T DO IT THEMSELVES or with a little help from their friends.

I went to the mikveh, and it's the one where the boir of maim chaim is underneath, not by the side. So as I was standing on a tablet with two holes in it, that separates the maim elyonim from tachtoinim, it occurred to me: hey, it's boor al gabei boir. it's better if spelled in Hebrew. BENDUR, did you get it?

Get it....oyyyyveiiii.....

You are really sumpin', man.

In this week's Parsha (Ki Seitzei) we learn that the nation (Moav) which sent its women to trigger the Jewish People are to be shunned. The Torah adds: Lo sidrosh Shlomam v'tovasam kol yameicha le'olam!!!

It is reasonable to assume that nobody, not even the publishers of Playboy and all the schmutz on the internet, is trying to be machshil anyone. They are trying to make money, period. Same for hookers, and same for me when I was acting out using other people.

Lo sidrosh v'tovasam forever, is a bit of a stretch. And the resentment and righteous indignation is a luxury that I feel is better left to those more qualified to handle it! Like, for example, frum yidden who are not sex perverts like me, perhaps you, and many others here on GYE.

Just finding a virtue in something does not mean that it is Hashem's Will for you or me to be the standard-bearers of that inyan, I feel.

dov wrote on 08 Sep 2011 19:24:

sumpin'? ??? somethin'? stumpin'? I gotta tell you, English is my third langauge, so I don't always get the pun...

Interesting dov,

I heard the exact same thing from the SA member who 12 stepped me.

I whined to him about those geferliche reshaim arurim who spread around the fake 100 dollar bills and business cards (we're going back 20+ years in New York, who else remembers these) to entice innocent little yeshiva boys to call 1-900 numbers.

He said very calmly, "Why do you think that they're such reshaim? They're just looking to make a buck, like anyone else?"

I never thought of it that way, and I still find it hard to think of it any other way.

Just my own two cents.