I liked the word taniying, and I think I get the implication.
But let me tell you something:
I have been a student of Tanya for many years now. I highlighted certain points for myself; I wrote them out in my journal; I learned them by heart. והנה ה' נצב עליו ומלא כל הארץ כבודו ומביט עליו ובוחן כליות ולב אם עובדו כראוי
Loy noga, v'loy poga. I remained the same grobe yung, a puste zhlob that I've always been. I gained a ton of knowledge from the holy Tanya. I gained zero control over my problem. I borrowed Mesilas Yeshorim from a friend (chabadniks among you will know, It's a BIG deal) and perused it, hoping that mussor might scare my yetzer away. I learned Tzetel Koton from the Rebbe Elimelech, and Hakdomo to sefer Taharas Yisroel. And many more, contemporary sforim.
Until coming to this website two week ago and reading the wonderful and inspiring posts on this forum, I was under a mistaken impression that all I have to do is Tshuvo, based on the above books, and my Yetzer/Ta'ava will just fade away. I had a major attitude adjustment in the last weeks, I am not jesting now...The main point that I realized that it's too late for me to hope I can find a quick fix in any book. That I have to give it all up, and mainly my perception of my own ability to deal with this out-of-hand problem. That it's going to be a long and hard road. That I have to take it one baby step at a time. And then, please G-d, I'll be able to finally enternalize the holy Tanya. Ah, a lot of what I learned in Tanya is being utilized in this process here: that's awesome, that means I've not wasted time learning it when I did.
A friend of mine complained to me that Tanya is boring, that answers to questions asked in  the first chapter are only found a hundred pages later, and who has the patience etc
But mussar, he said, - you open it up and it tells you right away wrong from right. I knew instantly that a) he's looking for a quick fix, and therefore is not serious about any kind of internal change and, b) he has no idea what he is talking about.
Tanya, Mesilas Yeshorim, the Ramchal, Rabbeinu Yona - are all AWESOME!!!!!!! Some better than others, in my opinion (guess which?). But for anyone at this stage of the game where I find myself to think they can do it by themselves, they just need the right text book, - I say, good luck. I also say, hashleich al Hashem yehovcho and start over. Baby steps, I say. Rav Zeira fasted 100 fasts in order to forget gemoro Bavlis, so that it doesn't interfere with his learning of the superior gemoro Yerushalmis. The GYE, in my humble, uneducated opinion, is a superior system for our recovery, and we shall not let our baggage get in the way.

Mottel you wrote that very well.Maskim .
May I add that Rabbi Yechaezkel Levestein one of the premier baalei mussar of the past generations,In his first discourse on ellul,he write that a prerequisite for judaism is to be an adam which means that your mind is in control of your body,otherwise you are a sick person and dont qualify as a human being.Only after living life in a way that your mind is present and leading can you start judaism.

yeah, it is Tanya's precept, too: Moach shalit al halev (and he adds: b'tuldosoi). I don't understand it , though: clearly I can't think myself out of my delusion. So, if I am not adam, and my mind doesn't govern etc, where do I go? is then Judaism applicable to me at all?

no is is not applicale at all unless your physical being is being led by a power higher than itself.As long as we are in the addiction our physicality is leading once we surrender to hashem ,he is now leading.So now we can start religion.So I think the answer to the question is that maybe your sechel means your connection to g-d.What I mean is healthy people have an inate sense of sprituality and their sechel is a way of actualizing this with their physical being.Addicts most constantly be giving over their physical being to the hands of g-d which is 2 ways of getting the same thing.I hope I make some sense to you.

mottel you make me think, that after all that, we still didnt scratch the surface of our hard shell, we need msuras nefesh

obormottel wrote on 19 Aug 2011 22:06:


Sometimes we do need to look where we're going, especially when driving.  If she's there where I need to look, I don't look directly at her, but above her or to the side, so she's in my peripheral vision.  I also right away ask Hashem to help me overcome the nisayon and not let the image stick in my mind.

And regarding your closing comment (not quoted above), I used to gaze in the street and think I was appreciating the beauty of Hashem's creation.  We are taught that the Y"H will convince us that an aveira is actually a mitzva.  A perfect example.  Now with my re-sensitized mind, I can once again appreciate true, permitted beauty.  It's good to be clean.  It's better than being a slave to lust.

Have a great day!
Alex

mechazek wrote on 22 Aug 2011 11:28:

I have to think about it though on the surface it seems right.
JackInShteeble wrote on 22 Aug 2011 12:43:

exactly. baby steps, brother. and in our dor, mesiras nefesh means mesiras harotzoin, so you're right on the money.
alexeliezer wrote on 22 Aug 2011 15:34:

That's what I was looking for. I start my day with being moiser myself to Hashem in all my netiyos, but to daven b'shaas ma'ase - that's gonna need to be learned.
alexeliezer wrote on 22 Aug 2011 15:34:

again, exactly my (former) thinking.
I also read your original thread (until it was carried far far away), and found it to reflect a lot of my understanding.
Thanks for sharing.

obormottel wrote on 22 Aug 2011 16:26:

We learn it from Yosef Hatzadik (the one in B'reishis, not on GYE).  His masters saw that Hashem was with him.  How did they know it was Hashem that was giving Yosef his success?  Because they heard him constantly davening to Him, "Hashem help this come out right, Hashem, help me do this well."

It's something I'm working on in all areas.  When I go to fix something around the house, I first ask Hashem to help me.  When I go to talk to an irate client, I daven first.  If it's a habit in all aspects of life, it will be there when we have our lust nisyonos.

As I am working the steps, (and I am not calling it enrollment into a 12Step program, but the steps of GYE, with filters, emails etc, the path that is outlined in the GYE Nutshell and Attitude handbook), but as I am working these steps, I am certainly pying attention to the outline of the 12 Step program.
The first 4 steps are
1. We admitted we were powerless over lust--that our lives had become unmanageable.
I have admitted this truth years ago.

2. We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
I have come to believe this within the last six months. Giving up control was very difficult.
Understanding that ein hachovush matir as atzmoi helped.
3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.  
About two months ago....
4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Can anyone tell me what this last thing means?
Also, but not the  least:
for steps 2 and 3, maybe I'm just saying this? Is there a litmus test to know one's sincerety?
I've changed my mind about important musogim in my life a couple of times in the recent past. I've given up on my freedom of will. I am quite confused about my understanding of things that I thought to beunshakable truths.
Like: G-d gives you Yetzer so you can fight it. So what am I doing giving the fight back to Hashem? So I know that I am powerless in this struggle. I ve tried every other way and failed. But do I believe it? What is my kivshon ho'aysh?

Mottel,

Have you read the Big Book, or are you just relying on the lashon of the steps themselves?

From your post it would appear that the former is the case. Bill describes this step very clearly in chapter 5.

As an aside, I can say from my personal experience that "working" the steps and studying them (even intensively with study aids such as Joe and Charlie's Big Book Study [a must hear, and a delight for those with even a slight sense of humor...]) is two different WORLDS.

Personally, I haven't even started "working" step one in the group framework. I'm in the first half of step 0 according to my temporary sponsor.

Would like to be ma'arich, but must sign off.

E

ben durdayah wrote on 24 Aug 2011 07:54:

you mean latter?
I am just reading what's available on this website. and I would like to find Toiro-based answers to this questions. SInce (according to the Great ones) the 12 steps ARE in Toiro, that shouldn't be hard. Why read the Big Book with Charlie's comments or whateva, when I can read a really BIG BOOK with a nice meforesh from Bardichev, or Dov, or alexeliezer?

Mottel, did you see this?

www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=3643.msg100187#msg100187

obormottel wrote on 24 Aug 2011 07:30:


O'Mottel,

It's OK if you're confused.  Hopefully your Y"H is confused too.

I'm a bit of a rogue here, and quite new at helping others with this, so please don't put me in the same sentence as Dov and Bard.

I really don't know much about the "toirah shel baal peh" of the 12 steps.  I just read them, and worked them on my own.  Working them to ME meant working to understand how to do them, and most importantly how to internalize them.  So I ended up with my own understanding, and so far it's working.  I turned the first few steps into a tfila.  By repeating the tfila, I get Help from above, and internalize the steps.

Regarding giving the fight back to Hashem rather than fighting it ourselves, this is far from giving up and not fighting our Y"H.  Let's be realistic here.  It takes a great deal of will power to not just give in to lust, but instead turn the fight over to Hashem.  The willpower is not giving in.  But instead of tightening every muscle in our bodies and growling in resistance, we call out to Hashem, turning the fight over to him.  Plenty of willpower exercised.

And instead of looking where I shouldn't and then fighting the lust, or sitting down to a computer when everyone else has gone to bed, I admit that I am powerless over lust.  And when you're powerless over an opponent, your only hope is to avoid it.  Duck and hide like a mouse.

Alex

Giving the fight over to Hashem doesn't mean giving up and saying "I'll do whatever I want, let Hashem come and drag me out of the swamp I wandered into". It means after we have done our best we say "OK this is as far as I can take it myself, the hill is too steep, come and push WITH me." It says "Ilmolei HKB"H Ozro" that means he helps, not that he takes over. There needs to be the Pischu Li Pesach first.
It's kind of like the mitzva of Azov Taazov Imo, you are not mechuyav to help if the owner does not work also.

Just my 2cents....

Gevura!

Thank you guys, that helps clear things up.
Alexeliezer, you didn't even put a smiley there when you said not to include you with Dov etc
I saw that you crossed hairs with him once or twice, but as long as it's l'shem Shomayim, I think "rogue" doesn't apply. Besides, in my book you're a sage and as much as I think Dov is Vice G-d, I find your thoughts very close to my own understanding of things (only much deeper and broader), and given your track record, I'd say I stand to learn a lot from you.
So this is anivus sh'loy b'mkoimoi.
As to the meat of the discussion:
Zemmy, I know that that's what Twersky says, and I will read your link to get his explanation on this things.
The main problem I have developed in the last day or so, was based on Dov's email which says something to the effect "if you are ashamed of your lusting, you're still holding on to it".
I am ashamed as heck (I hate using this word instead of the real one, so it is  brought to you courtesy of Ben Durdarya) and I can't even fathom talking to a live person about it, either face to face or on the phone. Which is why (is it alex or eliezer?) I didn't take you up on a talking on the phone offer; and you would be the guy to talk to, similar-minded etc.
So does that mean I still didn't make a decision to give over my will and my life to Hashem, and all I've done so far has been lip-service?