obormottel wrote on 04 Oct 2011 15:52:

i think some say it's like suspenders, you just gotta try to keep them at the same level, without one getting too high or low

I don't see why you can't lose your ego and keep your self-esteem.  Losing your ego means not putting yourself in the center.  Self-esteem? You were put here by the RBS"O.  He does not make mistakes.  He believes in you, believe in yourself.  Just don't put yourself in the center.  As Dov says, focus on how you can help others (with your G-d given talents).  We know you have them.

obormottel wrote on 04 Oct 2011 15:52:


Hey, can't imagine not being able to write a long post! (haha)

But seriously, the overwhelming majority of the time I go around with a down feeling - especially when it's about me feeling down about myself - it is my gayvo that is causing it.

The hidden reason for me being so disappointed with myself over the years was an immature expectation that I should be outstanding - or at least, great. Now, I am not referring to 'perfectionism'. I am talking about a deep-seated belief that I picked up somewhere that I really should be one of the top guys in yeshivah, outstanding in some way, mekarev nearly everyone...or I am actually a failure. 

I am not talking about what I would have always told you if you asked me. I am referring to what I actually believed inside my heart. It was a devastating sheker. It (among other things) pushed me to desperately seek sex and porn for a very long time. I needed it just to feel OK. Porn gave me a warm, sweet accepted feeling that my yiddishkeit couldn't give me, cuz I did not let it. As hard as I'd try in Yeshivah and at home, I hated myself (and life) for not being what I considered "OK": truly great.

I know this may sound like the opposite of a nechoma to some folks, but it is not. Knowing and accepting the truth about myself is the greatest nechoma I have ever experienced. And for me, my inherent gayvo in expecting much more of myself than I really have the ability to achieve and be, is far more poisonous than porn is.

Some respond to this saying it is selling ourselves short - "we must reach for the stars or we'll be stuck in the mud," they will say. And of course, they are right - for normals. But not for many addicts. As an addict, I do just fine when I accept that I am simply not endowed with the brains of the average acharon, nor the connectedness of the average tzaddik, and that Hashem still has a plan for me, too. I may expect less from me - but I can still expect the world from Him! He's G-d, for crying out loud. He can lift me! But I need to be real, first. And it cannot be just 'words'.

If this is painful, then to me it is all the more proof that it needs to be accepted. Not if you are normal, though. It's probably poison for a normal person. But the sinking addict is fueled by lies. Lies he feeds others, and lies he feeds himself. He thinks the lies are what is keeping him afloat - he truly believes in his heart that the lies he tells are the only things keeping him afloat. But really they are the water that is drowning him. And the biggest lie of them all is sometimes a false self-image. Even in pretending I am  too 'good'. Al titzdak harbei, indeed.

Recovery is time for me to grow up, and (among other things) that means accepting my limitations. Once I accept my limitations, Hashem will start raising me up. Eventually, He raises a person far above their natural limitations....but it's not Chanukah time yet, so I'll hold off on that idea for now. Aseres y'mei Teshuvah is first, cuz it's a time for acceptance of our limitations.

Hashem knows what to do with us as we really are. He does not do much with us as long as we are still 'somebody else'.

Humility. Nu. It's precious.

gibbor120 wrote on 04 Oct 2011 17:56:

An article I read on self-esteem the other night tells you to learn to accept compliments.
So, as a step towards self-esteem build-up: THANK YOU.
Dov, as always, precious. Nu, vot else is nu?
The ga'avo being the reason for feeling down - that's very wise, I never thought of it that way, it makes perfect sense. Why else would I be feeling down if not for my perceived lack of assumed greatness? How is it not perfectionism, though?
Also, Dov, you're the only one (so far) who advocates different prescriptions for addicts and normals. It seems right in principle, but I don't see a disclaimer anywhere else, that says: ok, now normal people tune out, advice for junkies only.
It would seem that a lack of self-esteem is a universal problem, and so is the egotism. Now, the toytzo'o of egotism may be an addictive behavior, ditto for a marred self-image...
I was trying to convey the message of "one day at a time, get off your high horse, baby steps" to one of my normal friends, and he told me exactly that: "you must reach for the stars or else..". He gave me an example of an indoor treck bike race: they always have a motorcycle leading the race to show the bikers there is room for going faster....
So the question is: living with unreasonable expectations of one's own performance is just as damaging to a normal, as it is to an addict. How do you convey this message, though, and, at the same time, how do you encourage an addict to try harder? Is there no room for growth for an addict?
So that was pretty long, right?

the tanya sais that atzvos is created by gaaveh, if you wouldnt expect whatever you think you deserve, you wouldnt be depressed when you dont recieve it

I also don't quite get the "normal" vs "addict" thing.  To me, first you need to be rooted in reality before you reach for the stars.  We often do things that make us feel like a tzaddik, and then think of our other behaviours (which would seem to suggest otherwise) as somehow not part of ourselves.  Meaning, sometimes reaching for the stars distracts us from seeing who we really are.  We feel we are reaching for the stars, but forget to look at what kind of ship we are taking to get there.

I once had a rebbi that said people generally work on madreigos (sorry dov) that are above or below our real level.  First, we have to be "real" with ourselves.  The stars can be a long term goal, but for now, we have to focus on what is in front of us.  The lofty goal is in the back of the mind, not the front.  The front is "what is today's avodah"?

On the perfectionism thing, there is some great reading and listening material at drsorotzkin.com/ from Dr. Ben Zion Sorotzkin.  Someone posted the link recently - THANKS!  I just started reading and listening yesterday.  There is some really good stuff there.

Careful there, Gibbor, 4 more posts and you are a Hero Member! Everything you said rings true to my ear. A lot of normal people are unrealistic about themselves and therefore set a standard for themselves that is unreachable and get despondent when they fail. So a lot of recovery tools would do wonders for normals, I am just not sure how to rebuff the reach for the stars argument if the consequences of of falling are not as dire as for an addict.
My current self-esteem search is influenced by Dr. Sorotzkin's articles on that website, so it's a great resource. And of course I always fall back on Tanya (thanks, Shmeichel), which bashes ga'avo and atzvus and many other destructive character traits. I have to give it a thought, though, when it comes to building self-esteem.....I'm sure it's there somewhere, maybe Serene Smile can give me a maare mokoim?

obormottel wrote on 05 Oct 2011 16:38:

Who says you need to rebuff it?  What do you beleive?  If you are like me, you want to be able to justify yourself to someone else.  Let go. (talking to myself as well).

Here's a mashal.  Let's say a baseball player wants to hit more home runs.  Well, if every time he steps up to the plate, he thinks "home run", he will strike out a lot.  If he focuses on hitting the ball, well, a lot of them will go out of the park.

A holier mashal.  Let's say you want to finish a masechta.  If you keep counting how many pages to the end, you will never get there.  Do the work.  Learn day by day and voila, before you know it, you finished it, one page at a time .

Focus on the small, accomplish the big. (i made that up just now - sounds good)

I just finished the entire tehillim last shabbos before RH. Probably the first time ever in one sitting. You know what always stopped me before from doing that? Kapitel 119.
As I would get up to long samechs, or ayins, I would think to myself: just wait till kuf yud tes, and the sefer would immediately fall out of my hands. SO your holy moshol is well taken, thank you.

Ok, change of topic (somewhat):
As I said I was feeling down lately, not "feeling it" on Rosh Hashono, and having hard time with living in general. So yesterday something happened, and I only realized later at night how bad it really was. I'm hoping to get away with a warning this time, but if you guys think it was a fall, I'll take it, though it's sad, I am near 70 days now.
Here goes:
I was on this culinary website yesterday (I do that for living) and I started typing into the search box, and a list of search history appeared. One of the searches was a combination of words that I used in the not-so-distant past, AND I CLICKED ON IT. The furthest I got was to the google list of websites with those two words as keywords, which was pretty benign and mostly medicinal in nature, thanks to google search filter, I  guess. The very first link had a vivid description which I actually read. Then I realized that I was "testing" my filter, like a lot of us do before falling all the way and I quickly got back to my casserole.
Only after I got home that evening it dawned on me that t wasn't just a benign detour or "the first look is on G-d" kinda thing. I actually consciously clicked on a word-conjunction denoting the only possible thing I could expect to see on the other side. Thank G-d for filters....
In conjunction with my feelings of depression and inadequacy lately, and following a search history to a sentence which, in retrospect, actually jolted me up a bit (I got a whiff of a fix I was looking for), AM I GOING INTO A RELAPSE?!
I saw a link somewhere to an article titled "Symptoms of oncomming relapse" or something, but I can't remember where. Zemmy?!
It also doesn't help that Wife is destroying what's left of my self-esteem with each interaction we have, she is so ruthless....And the Garden of Peace says, she's merely a reflection of me, so arguing or trying to stand up for myself is like trying to slap a mirror. aaaaarrrrrrgggghhhhhhh! 

I'm no posek, but I'd say not a fall. KOT! FORWARD ONLY, NO REVERSE!

Mottel, tayere heilege Mottel,

There is a story with Reb Yisrael Salanter (i think). someone came to him and said he was thinking of becoming a shochet but he is worried about the responsibility of providing kosher meat to people. what happens if he makes a mistake?
Reb Yisrael answered "would you rather someone who is not worried about that responsibility be shochet?"

Are you heading for a relapse CH"V? dunno. but it is always possible and we all need to be on our toes and alert to the beginnings of a slide. so be happy it wasn't worse and let that experience bring home the point that we are never 'farzichert' against anything until they start shoveling stuff...

So keep on keeping on, you are rocking and rolling, lechtachila aribber!

p.s. pass the casserole please

Casserole is in the cholint thread
any idea where this article might be?

obormottel wrote on 05 Oct 2011 18:59:

nope. i searched but did not find it

Holy Yid wrote on 19 Oct 2010 23:37:


www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4346.msg115765#msg115765

obormottel wrote on 05 Oct 2011 00:47: