Hi Ninety,

First of all: I AM NOT GAY!

I no longer allow myself to think like that, because that defines me by my problem and prevents me from working it out. One of the first things i did when I started my recovery (my wife really pushed this and i appreciate it) is to reject the label and not allow my issues to define my identity. Identifyin oneself like that is exactly what the whole secular media culture is shoving down our throats right now, you were born that way, it's just as normal, just be yourself, "alternate lifestyle choice" etc. As long as i entertained those thoughts i was full of self-doubt that i could actually break free from it.

I have come to see that my true identity is that i am a regular yid with an unusual yetzer hora. Hashem gave me this tafkid in life, to fight this battle. (Maybe i am a gilgul of someone who fell in this area and it's my job to fix it?) I messed up for a long time but now I am working on it.

as far as the whole "nature vs. nurture" thing, There is probably some of both. many people are probably born with an innate leaning toward such things, but never express it. Some of us are exposed to the emotional/psychological triggers that bring it out. I am sure that not everyone with a "distant father" turned gay, neither does every gay person come from such a background.  In my case I had a strong sex drive when I was young, I fooled around before I even knew what i was doing. Maybe it has to do with the father thing and the shyness also. Maybe it was just what i had available to look at at the time. All these things wound up intersecting and combining. Alot of it I only understand now in hindsight. I have been discussing these things with a therapist but it's sort of a chicken and egg question in my mind still.

in any case it doesn't matter, these are all explanations, not excuses. Thae past is what it was. The important thing is for me to not allow it to take over my mind again and to strive for more Kedusha and Tahara in my life.

Thirty-Seven
(i like being a number)

Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 19 Jul 2011 04:33:


Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 20 Jul 2011 02:49:


רבותי take a close look "GYE works". and it works fast
need I say more?

  ;D     

Continued success

I think that 37's wife outweighed us all here.  I already have an awesome respect for this lady.

@37:
In my experience, it might be a good idea to separate the masturbation, the SSA and the eye-guarding in your mind.  That is not to say that they aren't related, but there is a danger when people take on "bundles" of values.  I am closely and painfully aware of a situation where someone with a SSA took on a bundle of values, struggled in one area, and then ended up rejecting them all, because one area was just too hard.

I am most emphatically not, C"V, saying that you should be relaxed in any area, but rather that you should treat them all as separate struggles.  It would be awful for you to end up "requestioning" your sexuality just because images or thoughts assail you, or you give in to your body, and feel that you have failed in all areas together.

In my own case, at a young age, I made the decision to banish all SSA thoughts from my mind, and spent a huge amount of mental energy dismissing them.  I didn't "go out to war" with the thoughts, or searching for them.  Rather, I concentrated on other things, but if the thoughts occurred to me, I would then deliberately and proactively banish them.  I was young, and B"H I had a degree of success.  Nevertheless, I guard myself constantly, mentally and situationally, to prevent any regression.

You are a lot older than I was when I dealt with this.  But like me, you also have an attraction to women.  Perhaps, like me, you have an appetite that is vast, and can be filled with pretty much anything sexual, and SSA just fell into your lap.  Perhaps you, like me, have fewer inhibitions, or care less about prevailing social values.  Or perhaps we are different people, with very different challenges.  However I do know that it is possible to take SSA from being a major problem, to being a theoretical worry.  Perhaps it is even possible to eradicate it altogether.

For me, it really helped to see SSA as a particular struggle that was separate to anything else, and indeed more important to deal with than anything else.  I didn't deal with all my issues properly at the time (maybe I did it wrongly?) but I feel that had I tried to do so, I would have questioned my success, and perhaps failed in all of them.  Or perhaps not.

It really seems that the greatest asset in your life is your wife.  Such a wife is precious beyond everything.  If she is not worth recovering for, I don't know who or what is.  And that you relate to the poem upon which you commented probably shows that you want recovery and repair very, very badly.  For the record, I was crying when I wrote it, too.

@yossi:

As you say alot of these different things started separately but more or less simultaneously but didn't really get all mashed up into one mess until later. Much of the psychological/emotional stuff I did not really understand until I began the recovery process (beginning with the overwhelming emotional involvement that forced me to break out).
Afterwards I thought about what I really wanted deep down while I was doing it and came to much the same conclusions that my therapist later confirmed. Namely the lack of emotional connection as a child, the loneliness as a teenager , and my subsequent need to go back there over and over again. I never really wanted to do things TO boys, what I really wanted was to go back and BE one again. So I did it in my fantasies the only way I knew how.
While the masturbation may have started earlier, it eventually became the vehicle for me to escape into my fantasy world and soothe myself with pleasure. It took over my entire being until it began to be who I was.
One of the things I am trying to do now is to separate these thing back out. B'H I have been pretty succsessful in stopping the acting out, and slowly improving in the looking and thinking. Sometimes I just find myself WANTING something, nothing in particular, just this empty NEED deep inside. I know its the YH trying to get me depressed again, so I tell myself "I WANT to be GOOD!".
At the same time I am working on the emotional aspect, trying to allow myself to feel in way that I have not been able to allow myself before. Sometimes this turns me into a blubbering idiot, but in the long run I think it will help a lot. I am also working on making friends my own age and to connect with people. It's hard because I am so shy. This forum is one of the best things that has happened to me.

I have so much more to say but I have to run now. I must go to Shiur.... (anyone remember Judaea?)


Gevura!

Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 20 Jul 2011 02:49:


If you hear a voice within you saying, "You are not a painter," then by all means paint, boy, and that voice will be silenced.  (Henri Matisse)

That can be read in the opposite way of what I think you intended, but I understand what you mean.

Since I started posting here I feel like a huge weight has been lifted from me. Daaga blev Ish Yasichena. Or as they say in English, "A trouble shared is a trouble halved" so by sharing with so many people here after hiding for so long I really feel like it has been halved again and again.
I feel so NORMAL today, after being miserable for so long, it's almost like something's missing in me. A part of wants to feel bad again, to recapture the intensity of those first weeks of withdrawal...
( I better stop now, i'm weirding myself out with this...)

Anyway I know it will only last until the YH finds a new trigger to shove in my face, then I know the monster inside me will come roaring out of its cave again....

Gevura;
We love you, your post are inspiring to me and to many others here who still don't have the guts to be as honest as you are.
Thank you.

Gevura Shebeysod -

I apologize if I categorized you and I was completely wrong. In truth I too have fallen prey to societal nomenclatures and believe that everyone is born a certain way.

I think Rav Yaakov and Rav Moshe have a disagreement whether a desire for males is innate or acquired. I belive that seeing it as an acquired trait or part of your nurturing; it is then easier to view oneself as heterosexual and overcome whatever desires he may have.


I wanted to point out something and Gevura please tell me if you agree with me.

In English we have two words (I am sure there are many more) that describe feeling uncomfortable when something comes to light. Shame and embarrasment.

Here are a few scenerios where one might be ashamed

1) Caught watching straight p***
2) Caught sleeping with shiksos
3) Desiring porn
4) Desiring other men, or children

What we fail to distinguish is that that in the first two scenarios the person was wrong and the act that he did he deserves to feel ashamed of.

In scenerios 3 and 4 the word to describe this should be different. While one may feel dirty from desiring these things, he should not feel ashamed at all. Only the dead dont desire. In fact the word to describe him should be positive so long as he does not act out on his natural inclinations.

ninety

90,
no need to apologize.
innate element to it, and that people are born with an inclination to being this way. therefore the label is appropriate.
However as a matter of attitude  i insist
on rejecting the label for myself, because that gives me the confidence to fight it off. even if we are born like this, Hashem would not forbid something that is impossible to resist. Its difficult as hell, especially after such a long time of soaking in the mud, but i must believe that it can be done. the physical, visceral reaction to seeing a "trigger" is as strong as ever, all i can do right now is to train myself to ignore it and turn my thoughts elsewhere.

Shame vs. embarrasment: as i understand it shame is what you feel to yourself and embarrasment is what you feel to others. so if you get busted you feel both. as far as 3 and 4 one can be ashamed of what one thought and did, and at the same time be proud and happy at not having done worse.

Thirty seven,
Just read your beautiful intro post today.  It is just so good to hear that someone who was so ill can turn things around.  Your wife is a gem!  You will be in a position to help many people here.

It sounds like you have the enemy sized up pretty well.  It will continue to get easier, but it will be a lifelong vigil.

Welcome, welcome, welcome!
Alex

90,
Sorry my previous post got mangled and the beginning was missing. Basically i was saying that in regard to the Nature vs. Nurture debate, I believe that there is some of both. I am sure that some people are born with more of an inclination to these things, but it may take vaious enviromental factors to bring it out. So there is some truth in someone considering themselves "gay".
Hwever as part of my recovery, my atitude must be that i will not allow myself to be defined that way. So we are sort of in agreement there.

************************************

The other day I saw the Yad Hashem. It was a small thing, but I was inspired by it.

I was davening in a shul I don't frequent that often. I had my glasses off, as I do pretty often these days to avoid the inevitable distractions. Out of the corner of my eyes I noticed someone walk in, and even with my blurry view I could tell he would be big "trouble". He came over and took a seat RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME! I could feel the aching need for a better look. I told myself I would wait until davening was over (I often use such a "delaying tactic" to give me time to get my act together. I will tell myself "I will not look for the next 5 minutes" then try another 5 etc.).

I then said quietly "Hashem please make him go away. I don't want to be tested like this." I continued davening, trying to keep my eyes only in my siddur. Just a minute before davening was over, for no apparent reason he picked himself up and walked over to a seat on the other side of the room. WHEW!

I felt like Hashem was telling me "I see you, I know you are trying and I am here to help".

Welcome gevurah... What an inspiring story!

There are some links on this page that might be helpful to you:
www.guardureyes.com/GUE/FAQ/FAQ16.asp

WOW! A post from the heilige Guard! On my thread! Now I feel like I truly belong.

Just signed on to the 90 day chart. I am on day 10 now since I last fell. I hope b'ezras hashem never to have to restart the count....

*******************

I'm having a bit of a problem since I started this process, that is that i have a lot of trouble sleeping. It's all my fault, of course. For countless years i had gotten used to soothing myself to sleep every night, with a couple of pillows and a good fantasy. I have stopped that now of course, but i feel like a baby that had his tzummy taken away. i toss and turn for hours every night untill i pass out from exhaustion. The only thing that seems to work is to think about sad things (like what a miserable rotten person i was (and still am trying not to be)) or just sing a hartzige niggun to myself until i cry, then i cry myself to sleep. Just like a baby. i want my tzummy back....... :'( :'( :'( :'(

I also have a problem where I wake up in the middle of the night with a physical arousal. In the old days I would just take advantage of it and snuggle back into the pillows, now I just have to wait till it goes away.

If anyone has any eitzos I would be glad to hear them.

Keeping On Trucking...

Gevura!

No guarantees, but try the following:

Get yourself lying down in a comfortable position - one in which you could be totally relaxed.

"Switch off" each part of your body, thinking about it, and turning it off like a light - begin with your toes, your feet, your heels, your ankles - actually feel each bit, and let shut down for the night.  You should feel your feet, then legs, etc. becoming heavy and relaxed.  Take your time doing it.

Work through your whole body like this.

It's what I use, and it works very well for me, B"H   I had the same issue - precisely!