Alexeliezer, what about all the people (rabbonim included) who deal with woman on a constant daily basis? And specifically those involved in kiruv, there are rabbis talking and dealing all day with immodestly (by our standards, at least) clad woman. How do they do it, mentally?
Of course, look away, stay away. But there ARE people who do it.

regularbachur wrote on 11 May 2011 19:10:


Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 07 Sep 2010 22:42:

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 11 May 2011 18:41:


Yossel, don't flatter yourself...

You think Satan doesn't have anything better to do than mess with you?



Oh, I forgot, you are Yosef HaTzaddik...


IMHO, no!

Only by the really big tzaddikim who aren't really shayach to shmutz is there a concept that they have such a high level of heavenly protection from even seeing anything unappropriate.

If a "trigger #2" crosses their path, it's possible that it's ma'aseh Satan...

For us, who are ever so shayach to the nisyoinos -it's only natural that we should be running into such sights in order to exercise our bechirah in the right way, so that we can shteig... The Satan doesn't need to deal with us, we do a good enough job of doing ourselves in!

Or as I once heard besheim some heiliger tzaddik -you think the YH bichvoidoi u'veatzmoi needs to take care of you? He's got you programmed to do his work for him!!

That's a non-12-steps kind of "Torah and Chizuk Approach" sort of answer.

A recovery-oriented answer (in my unlearned opinion) is something like:

Satan?

Sorry, healthy people know how to cope with such sights. It's me who is the problem. She knows no better, and is definitely not dressing this way for me. This is just the accepted manner of dress nowadays. If she knew how she was viewed by people who translate what they see into it's lust value? Even a shiksah would run to grab a wrap and get covered up. But their sensitivity is down to below zero -and this mode of dress means absolutely nothing to them. In the exact same way that I get up in the morning and put on the same exact kind of white shirt and black pants -She gets up and gets dressed provocatively because that is the accepted wardrobe in the place from which she comes. Same thing for her makeup and accessories. Even if this mode of dress -when viewed by me -drives me up the wall from raging desire, lust, etc., until it hurts physically! that is only because of me, not her!

From the bit of rubbing shoulders that I have done among goyim and freie yidden as well -I believe that all of the above is 100% true.

E

No, that's not too drastic. It's R' Miller! I agree with that, as do many poskim. However, there are many rabbis (some big ones) who ARE in fact involved with kiruv and women and I don't judge them, because I'm sure they have a halachic basis for it.
How do they do it? Normal or not, healthy or not, addict or not, every guy likes looking at girls, certainly if they aren't dressed too properly...

There is a dais in Gehinnom too.......


If those 'Rabbonim' are not actively Guarding Their Eyes, if they are gazing on these women, they WILL have a seat on the Head Table in Gehinom!


On the other hand, if these are, in all other matters, Erlicher Yidden, we can safely assume that they have mastered the art of 'looking w/o seeing'.....


Kol hamistakel efilu b'etzba k'tana...... applies to Rabbonim too!

regularbachur wrote on 11 May 2011 19:28:

בעבידתהו טרידי
plus a lot of davening
and really not every body can do it, not even healthy guys are build for this, only a few
(its famous the lubavithce rebes havtacha for his chasidim in this noise)

So how exactly does one go about working on this art of "looking without seeing?"

hahahaha yea.... its imposible huh?

oh ribono shel olam from where we stand its impossible but for oivdei hashem who are buzey במלאכת הקודש its posible

מה שרואים מכאן לא רואים משם
(not like sharon said והמבין יבין)

regularbachur wrote on 11 May 2011 19:46:


I think it's actually supposed to be the other way around: "seeing without looking"...

This is an important question.  I can share what my local rabbonim have said (and demonstrated) on the matter.

L'histakail banoshim (typically translated as gazing at women) really means "to consider" from the shoresh "seichal,"  meaning you're looking and the gears are turning.  So perhaps these rabbonim are able to look without being histakail.  I must do this at work when conversation and professional eye contact with women is necessary, although as an addict, it's quite the challenge.

My rav has said more than once, that Horav Matisyahu Solomon said that the reason he was zocheh to be the mashgiach of Lakewood is because when he was younger, his wife would invite high school girls to their Shabbos table to he could be mashpiah on them.  He would make it appear that he was looking at them but NEVER actually did.

I also know that when my rav counsels women he doesn't look at them except briefly.

Someone whom I admire & respect told me that he trained himself that while he is walking down the street he notices that 'something' is in front of him but not exactly 'what' it is. He doesn't recognize his wife or mother on the street. He LOOKS where he is going - he doesn't want to bump into anything, but doesn't SEE what it is.

My experience is that I have a 'real agenda' in life with my family BH!.. And I invite lots of secular jews into my life (it helps me A LOT!) .. Getting overconfident would be ridiculous so I always pray (as Rambam writes) and so far (imperfect) but so good ... And sober :-).. I have friends who are community rabbis though which is a whole different ball park.. BTW, frun girls these days are also under enormous pressure because they all know how much guys like us are drooling over them and they FEEL when we look at them and their friends.

BD, good point! By the way, I had a rebbe in high school, a tremendous baal mussar, who told me that over the years, he'd become an expert in woman's shoes. When he passes a woman on the street, he always looks down at her feet...  :-)

Chashuve bachur,
one eitza for the street is to find a male walking and zone in on him and follow. You keep your eyes only on him. Another eitza is to take off your glasses(if you wear them).also what helps is to be on the gye website while walking. The whole world is walking around that way. Continued hatzlacha.

Maalin

"to be on the gye website while walking.".. :-) yep I was doing that as I read this.. And let a trigger pass right by