Haha! Reb Yid, still with the jokes!  :-) :-)  About the browser, that's exactly what I plan on doing. I'm going to, within the next couple days, delete the browser, but I will still have access to email on my phone. I will PM you to give you my email address and to get yours. I realize that once I delete the internet from my phone for good, I will sorely miss GYE, which I only have access to because of my internet-capable phone. But like I said before, the tradeoff is worthwhile. I definitely feel, though, that I will need chizuk from you and other people on this site. If there are any guys out there reading this who wouldn't mind keeping in touch a little bit, especially after I drop the internet, I think it would be hugely benefitial for me. If you can PM me, that would be great!
Since I joined this site 3 plus days ago, I've been completely clean and have been very involved in using this site, as well as doing a few other assorted things which are helping me in this area. Today is day #4! And about 6 bucks left on my data plan. Can't wait till it's empty so I can bounce the browser for good!

Hey, I have a question I would like to ask you guys. Anyone who can answer it, I would appreciate it. I've discovered the following issue over the last day or so. I stopped "acting out" over 5 days ago. I generally spend all day in yeshiva, B"H. There are very few triggers there, and it's a long full day, so the first few days were relatively easy. However, on friday, I went to the bakery to buy things for shabbos, and boom, YH starts making my life very difficult. Pretty cashier behind the counter... Shabbos day, boom! Women in shul, making my life very difficult. Tonight, I went to the store to buy coffee. Boom! Pretty married girl, making my life very diffficult! I fought very hard in all these situations, looked away, perhaps sometimes even rudely, but it was so important for me to avoid any triggers. I felt craaazy! Like I was surrounded by the YH everywhere. B"H, tomorrow morning, I go back to yeshiva for the week, but there has to be a way of easing my way back into normal life. How do I now view a girl on the street, in the store, wherever?? It can't just be ignored. Granted, you have to look away whenever possible, but you gotta be able to live a normal life too... whatdya say? Thanks!

Hey RB its luuustig.
All I can say is what works for me with the help of hashem. Basically I am crazy when i am lusting. I am irrational, fake, and have no free will. Being led on a leash to wherever my present fantasy will take me. Of course because of my condition, I need to take appropriate precautions like filters and not hanging around pretty girls. However once I know what this addiction does to my life and the consequences involved, I am automatically  in less of a struggle when passing this stuff on the street. The trick for me is to constantly live in sobriety which means talking to other people stuggling with this illness about what sobriey means in their lives for them. This is what the first step tells us that only after hitting rock bottom can we trully realize that we cannot lust period. because it ruins our lives. with this we can begin to rebuild our inner lives by reaching out to others. I find this helpful. Hope you do to.
Luuustig.

Hey luuustig! In that case, I have two questions for you. one-does that mean that you must live the rest of your life in constant "active sobriety?" Meaning, forever be talking with people with similar situations, and constantly having all this on your mind? I know the desire never goes away, the YH will always be there, but does that mean that you will never ease into a "normal" life? (unless you're gonna say that that IS normal!) And question two is, yes, I acknowledge that lusting ruins lives and that's why I must be so careful... Now, how do I now deal in the store with that cashier? Or the girl on the street walking her dog? Or the receptionist at the office where I'm taking a job interview? End of the day, women are and will be everywhere, and there must be a rational healthy way of dealing will them, aside from just averting your eyes and ignoring them...

It seems to me that you feel uncomfortable with the concept of always needing to work on sobriety. Well I dont know any other way for myself at the moment. And it sure beats being stuck in thiis horrible addiiction doesnt it? A desire for women is a normal biological thing. My desire is not. I know this because I know it destroys my life. No one told me this, I figured it out all by my self. I know that my drug of choice is lust and that the emtiness and irritibility I feel in my life eventually leads me to lust and lust and lust and lust and lust........................ I would rather fill my emptiness with positive thoughts and the only wayi know to do that is by being in head of the game by staying as sober as I can be before the emptiness and irritibility come. And eventually its all up to hashem once we do our part. We need to trust him and not be so worried about the future. Every day I am sober is a gift from hashem so i take things one day at a time.

Aha, gotcha. So what you're saying is that whether or not it's a permanent solution or only a temporary situation, at least for now you must view each day as a crazy big test of sobriety, and treat each situation seperately as a massive test?
Because yes, I am slightly uncomfortable with the thought that it's an intense battle forever. Granted, it's work for life, the YH isn't ever going on vacation just cuz we've been sober for a while, but I would like to think that after a certain amount  of hard hard work, you would be able to somewhat ease back into more mainstream life of not allowing this obsession with constant vigilance which we all currently have and need, to completely envelop our entire being.
Does that make any sense?

I dont know . But I certainly would'nt mind. Anyway Im not depending on it. Besides whats wrong with spending the rest of your life speaking to other yidden about coming closer to hashem. I could think of worse things. As far as feeling normal. I certainly wouldnt consider my patterns of thinking that get me to lust normal. If they were than I'd rather be abnormal, yet sober.

Oh and one more thing RB. About the cashier, dog walker, bakery, etc. Ive heard on calls that it can be helpful to daven for these women. This has helped me in these situations. I daven for their health, children, etc. even without knowing their names. This turns them even for a moment into real people and not objects for my lusting, and allows me to get by. In todays chizuk letter Dov speaks about this as well and it seems he's mamash answering your question which he briings in the beginning.
Luuustig

Ya, that's because I was that "someone" who asked Dov that question! Good call!

Oh, and about your last post, I never said there's anything wrong with talking to people in a similar situation as chizuk. If fact, I think it's phenomenal what it can accomplish and how benefitial it actually is. My point is that I feel that it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be that way forever-who says you will always NEED it? And yes, Dov is right about how he answered my question. After he sent me that answer, I think it was on motzei shabbos, I went to a store, and saw a pretty married girl shopping, talking on the phone or whatever. My first thought was not very appropriate. However, that thought quickly turned into "this is a young woman trying to shop for her small young children, trying to be a good mommy to them. G-d bless her!" I turned away, not sure if it did anything, and continued my shopping. Ten minutes later, I saw her again. Right away, I knew what I had done had worked. There wasn't even an ounce of lust like there was before. Just pure "caring" for her as a human being. I felt like a million bucks. I took back the power that I had given her.

Great Job!!
That is very impressive.
Your question is not new or original. It is one of the most difficult that recovering addicts must face. "Great. While in rehab, I am fine. But what happens in the real world?" Sound familiar?

Although Dov does not need my haskama, I will say that I completely agree with him in theory. I say in theory, because it is not at all easy to do. I would like to add one drop of perspective however. I believe there are different levels of triggers, and therefore different correct responses. Example: There is a HUGE difference between seeing a pretty, young, Frum, modestly dressed woman shopping in the bakery, and seeing a gorgeous, scantily clad goyishe teenager prancing around and showing off her assets. Both may be triggers, but they are on very different levels. While the modest one may be a trigger only to an addict, even the most well adjusted, in control of his eyes type of guy, would have a problem with the second. So what's the point? Good question. I'm working on it......................

I think that what Dov is suggesting, and what you were able to do so well and effectively, is expected, and attainable by trigger #1. She is not Be'etzem a problem, but I make her into a problem. By refocusing my mind to make her back into a regular normal human being, I can successfully  neutralize that trigger. But in case #2, with all due respect to Dov, (and a lot is due) I do not feel like I personally am capable of reframing the situation to see the "real person behind the external trigger". In that case my only recourse is to run, hide, remove my glasses, bump into walls, but retreat to safety as quickly and effectively as possible.

I believe that there are special people out there, and Reb Dov may be one of them, who can also effectively reframe trigger #2. But even if I were to be capable of that eventually, I feel like I am still too raw in my recovery to accept that challenge upon myself. So I feel like as far as the Frum trigger, that I must reframe immediately in order to live in a normal society. But whenever trigger #2 comes prancing by, I'M OUTTA HERE!!!!

And that's my one cent on the matter!! (The economy is so bad, my 2 cents are now worth only one!! )

I don't think that anyone should be able to "handle" trigger #2. The reaction SHOULD be to run away, bump into walls, etc. Even down the line, I don't anticipate being able to see that barly dressed goyish teen and say, oh it's fine, she should be blessed, etc. and it's all good. Absoutely not! That's dangerous territory. It's trigger #1 that's more the issue, at least for me. Because hopefully,  I'm not coming across Trigger #2 on a regular basis, and when you do, I must be on constant vigilance.  The question is, what would Reb Dov say about trigger #2? Would it be the same reaction?

For trigger #2 I tell myself that it is the Satan in disguise. She's certainly at least his sh'liach.

I doubt that [i]she[/i] thinks of herself that way.

As sl***y as some females act or dress, very often on the inside they are downright wholesome. This goes for Yiddishe Techter and LeHavdil those that are not.

Not that this makes things easier if you can't relate to them in that way.

But if you realize that your lust is the problem, then even though we all should avoid triggers of all sorts like the plague -there's no reason to classify people who dress the way they think is appropriate as the Satan's shliach.

Sorry, it just doesn't wash.

E

Ben D, I agree that it's important not to judge them. Despite their "putting themselves out there," we have no information as to anything about them. I'm the last guy to judge, but still, seeing her like that messes with my head. So, what goes through your mind when you see a trigger #2? Obviously, look away if you can, think about something else, whatever, but what should be the initial (and follow up) thought process?