Reb Yid wrote on 11 Apr 2011 01:01:

once upon a long long time ago i use to feel bad too
Reb Yid wrote on 11 Apr 2011 01:01:

oh yes it is very important... wonder why i dont manage to do charata....

reb yid you ok i enjoyed you, and i wish to be clean as u are amen

Dear alexeliezer,

How are you? I am sorry for my part in hijacking your thread with the typical, repetitive discussion about the use of Torah concepts in recovery. Much can and will be said on this, and it will not end. In the meantime, you and I will both be sober, clean, and growing along spiritual lines - both through Torah, because we choose to try to be ehrlicher, true, yidden.

I believe I speak for others, as well, in this.

Please keep posting all of us about your progress in your growth and improved life!

Much love,

Dov (and others)

laagvokeles wrote on 10 Apr 2011 22:22:


Hello.

From what you've said on this thread, I believe that I can relate to certain aspects of your views.  Some things that you said which resonate with me include (I will paraphrase/observe):
-You could control yourself if you want to.  What you lack is the desire - and you know it (sound familiar?)
-You wrap objections based Torah around your behavior, effectively cutting off one obvious path to dealing with that which the Torah prohibits
-You consider your actions wrong on an intellectual level, but not an emotional one.  This is linked to the first point.
-You are "removed" from the issue at hand, and the people on this board - you demonstrate this with distancing language, and a "that does/would/should not apply to me" mentality.  I would conjecture that you do not have many "close" friends, with whom you share your true emotions, nor do you like the idea too much.
-You are here, on this board.

If I am correct, then I relate those things keenly.  If I'm wrong, then I must just be using you as a mirror in which to view myself.

Either way, in my life, things had to come crashing down around me for my behavior to change.  And I believe that it's Hashem's gift to those of us who cannot make that first step.  You know, He has odd ways of working.  We think we protect ourselves from danger, but we are deluding ourselves.  Have you ever seen a young child believe that he is "getting away with something" while all the adults laugh?  He must laugh at us the same way.

I also suspect that if you felt strongly enough that what you are doing is wrong, then you would initially have very little need of the 12-steps or even a remedy based upon Torah.  You just strike me as that sort of person.  I also believe that if you felt that it was sufficiently wrong, you would grab at any method available.  I believe that, if your world came crashing down, you would do anything - anything - that would set your world right again.  From what you've let on, you have very little motivation to take any remedy seriously, since on at least one level, you do not feel that you have a problem (even if you think that you do).

And a general note: This coming seder night, we will read of the Makkos (plagues).  We will all ask, "how was Paroh so stupid as to not read the danger signs?".  We will be answered that "Hashem hardened his heart".  It took a mortal danger to Paroh himself before he ran to the B'nei Yisroel, begging them to leave, something he would never have considered doing in the past.

I can attest to this sequence of events, as I imagine many here can do.  We might start off with some guilt, but over time, our hearts are hardened (calloused, if you will).  We might see some danger signs, but "we can manage them".  Finally, we get a good kick up the backside.  Many of us will thank Hashem for this, some might not.  But at that stage, we will do the unspeakable, and ask for help, or have help thrust upon us.

And how many of the B'nei Yisroel did not want to leave?  And how many only continued because of the support of good leadership and downright peer-pressure?  Chazal have repeatedly pointed out reference to our own  "personal" Mitzrayim and slavery to the physical (especially lust) from which we should escape.

When you are all at your Seder, reading about the plagues and ultimate mortal peril in which Paroh found himself - spare a thought for your fellow Yidden who have a hardened heart, and pray that we have the strength to move forward before we are forcibly moved on.

the jester? newbie? (what dos jester mean?)
mama mia its the first time in my life i read such a long message!
and with joy! (u go in into my private guiness book)
and shtiklech toiro in this forum? if i wanna learn i wouldnt be here! but still i enjoyed it and read it (i never read toiro here, its for porn only! if i wanna learn ill do it somewhere allse, here it is for to help ppl do tshuva or 12 steps)
but you spoke staraight into my heart!
you know how it hurts me your vivid moshol to paroi? you know how it hurds me to think that im exactly like him? pushing and pushing and pushing and hoping the sky will never fall?
its not that im cured or will do tshuva after reading your post, but i believe in והיו הדברים האלה על לבבך and then one day BOOOM  they went in בתוך לבבך


just what u wrote :
You wrap objections based Torah around your behavior, effectively cutting off one obvious path to dealing with that which the Torah prohibits

and also what u write:

-You are "removed" from the issue at hand, and the people on this board - you demonstrate this with distancing language, and a "that does/would/should not apply to me" mentality.



those 2 מאמרים i didnt understand (cause of my bad english)
by the way may i know how old u are and if married
chasidish litvish
learn, work? ;D thanks ;D

laagvokeles wrote on 11 Apr 2011 13:10:


You use the Torah as a barrier to one possible solution for your issue, i.e. you give reasons as to why a possible remedy should not be used.




You act like an outsider - you show an intellectual interest, but do not feel that the solutions apply to you.  Why do I say this?  Because you are at pains (you try hard) to voice your opinion on why 12-steps should not come first, and you defend it.  But then go on to say (basically) that this is all theoretical, and you are not yet at the stage where even Torah can help you.  So why do you even comment?  We are told that the wicked son (who distances himself from the rest) asks to ask, not to learn.  When he argues, it is to argue, not to understand.  However, I firmly believe that you actually want to understand, and are not like this - that is why you are here.  I believe the same about the wicked son - he is actually at the seder...  We just have different ways of expressing it.

Of course, perhaps I see too much of myself in this - I tend to distance myself, and approach things on an intellectual level.  I find feeling difficult in many situations.  So if I read things wrongly, I apologize.




I am old enough to know better, and have reached my full strength by now.  B"H I am blessed with a wife.  Chassidish/Litvish is a distraction from who we really are.  I have a job, B"H, and do not learn as much as I should.

TheJester wrote on 11 Apr 2011 14:01:


exactly i am a jew  and i  dont need no favors from no boddy allse we have the bible with all the solutions in it, we dont need לרעות בשדה זרים (it could even be that the 12 steps have סימוכין in the toiro like a few ppl said then it can even be aproached as the 1 option)
unless its not been proved that this specific individual suffers of mental problems called addiction etc, no reason why just not to do tshuva and finish.
its my opinion for my private needs, no intettion of telling someboddy that he is wrong
TheJester wrote on 11 Apr 2011 14:01:


no no no the toiro can help me big time.... if i would only start to take the medicine the toiro offers me.....

so why do i comment? cause of ppl like u who tell me things to the point like that i am כמו פרעה
believe it or not it helps me, it helps to wake up my apetite to decide for the 10000 time thats it... ill fight it!
thank you for that (you didnt answer me what juster means)

laagvokeles wrote on 11 Apr 2011 14:23:


I don't believe I have helped you.  I believe my words will do one of two things:
(1) Make you depressed C"V.
(2) Give your Yetzer Hora something else to learn to overcome - another argument to be intellectually picked apart and deemed irrelevant to you, over time.  Perhaps after (1) has occurred.

Unless you can tell me "I did not do X at a specific time because your words affected me", I will believe this.  It's what I would do.

Edit:
Jester
–noun
1. a person who is given to witticisms, jokes, and pranks.
2. a professional fool or clown, especially at a medieval court.

no worries.... depressed? hahaha... (what do u think im a woman? or a american polite sensitive guy... no no.... I fress tshulent kigel till i blow up.... im a man who gets depressed only if  i have no money  or if woman or child get sick c"v thats it...)
please keep it up!

about the other option that u wrote that ill probably overcome it etc, its true till a certain point... cause we get used to evereything...

but still i enjoyed it and it gave me a nice nice tickle
כי כמוך כפרעה
loved it

and dont forget i wanna change! i just am "asleep" so ppl like u help me wake up
and i thank you for that

laagvokeles wrote on 11 Apr 2011 14:55:


My pleasure.

And you do not want to change - you said as much earlier.  In fact, you said that if you wanted to, you could.  I think you want to want to change.

there is a Chasidisher vort, כל הבא לצבוא צבא, from the lashon of 'ratzon', like צבי ואתרעי בן ומסר לן אורייתא
sometimes we only want to want

even then we can daven that we feel the correct ratzon

TheJester wrote on 11 Apr 2011 15:04:


more acurate impossible

so im here so we manage with the 1 step wich is: want to want, and when ppl tell me כי כמוך כפרעה the way u did (with taam and chein) u help me to want to want

laagvokeles wrote on 11 Apr 2011 15:42:


Yosef,

So I have succeeded in taking you nowhere you were not already, except to "tickle" you with a mirror of broken promises.

Yehuda.

lol
well...maybe next round....

Dear Jester/Yehuda,

I am a very big fan of yours already. I just hope we do not see everything the same way. So far, I am quite shocked to meet someone else I can hear so easily.

Thank-you, and may Hashem grant us totally for free as he has been so far, the willingness to keep changing and outgrowing our old skins, uncomfortable as the process may prove to be. And we will get more and more of the "Paroh" out of us.

Be well, chaveri

Dov

dov wrote on 11 Apr 2011 16:12:


Just to be clear, that was a reference to כי כמוך כפרעה only, and my name is not Yehuda.  Nor would I expect our learned friend to be called Yosef.




Likewise, I am a big fan of yours.  And may He indeed remove Paroh from us; and remove us from our slavery.  And keep us growing so that we never again fit into our old skins, as painful as that may be.