laagvokeles wrote on 07 Apr 2011 19:18:


Even then it probably won't help, since then LvK would have to know:

laagvokeles wrote on 10 Jan 2011 20:27:

in which case
laagvokeles wrote on 10 Jan 2011 20:27:

or maybe you are
laagvokeles wrote on 10 Jan 2011 20:27:

and even if
laagvokeles wrote on 10 Jan 2011 20:27:


In short, we can get a sense

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 07 Apr 2011 21:03:


It was just so much easier.

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 07 Apr 2011 21:03:
What does any of this prove? I can show you a hundred sober jewish men and their wives with families transformed, and all frum sweet b'nei Torah. It works for me and it works for other yidden, furm and not frum. And so do other drochim, I guess. So. What's the issue?

Stop talking about it and discussing it and showing the sides -  and just use whatever tools you choose already, and get better w/Hashem's sweet help. Right now and just for today.

We have all heard Torah and sforim before. The only help for all the hurting yidden out there is SOBER, or CLEAN people. That is all they seek. People with their exact same problem who are SOBER or CLEAN, themselves! Period.

The right eitzos do not matter, the right hashkofah and kavonnah does not matter. They will see that stuff here, as they have in many other sforim and eventually nod their heads and just move on to another website.

Ein lanu shi'ur rak hatorah (with a lower case "t") hazos! Yidden out there need "Zos toras ha'addict." These people know they do not need yet more Torah! They need a way out of the maze!! They are dying for it. Do you not hear? Our friends are dying!

So get better yourself first. THEN love these people by sharing exactly what is actually working for you (I suggest you give it a few months). Why not quit sharing what should work for you. That is not it. The hashkofah has no place here or anywhere, and is just atzas hayetzer, for lack of a better term.

The real thing is what we all need. real success, not more intelligence, frum or not.

That's what I live by and believe with all my heart, ad meioh v'esrim, omein.

dov!!
amen!!!
dov im the one whos dieeng! i cant wait to be a erlecher yid! and im gelous u already managed!
love you

and to you "u are a jew" u made me laugh!!!
i did not change my mind since then!
how do ppl recall all that? specially yosef hazadik... amazing.

La'ager:

You don't chap, your problem is that in order to be an erlicher Yid, first you have to be a mentch -plain and simple. As my balebatishe father a"h used to say: Me darf zein erlich -nisht frim. What does erlich mean? HONEST, being a straight-shooter. Not a bunch of fancy high-falutin' chumros. My father was ehrlich, but I'm unfortunately just "frum". I would like to be ehrlich.

But if we look at porn on the internet and m********e, we are being:

1) Dishonest with Hashem when we tell him that we love him.
2) Dishonest with ourselves when we say that we believe that M'loi Chol Ha'aretz Kvoidoi, that he sees everything, that we get punished for aveiros, that ... basically all 13 ikkarim and everything from Anochi through Lo Yihyeh L'cha -the shoresh of mitzvas esei and lo sasei.
3) We are saying that our little aiver'l's 3/4/5 hours of anticipation and 30 seconds of pleasure and our minds seeking "the ultimate hit" and that glamorous shiktza (who for us is really a bunch of megapixels on a plastic screen) means more to us than:

a. our wives
b. our children
c. our reputation/job/parents (check if applicable) 

We are cheating on our wives -plain and simple... (how would you like if she told you she has someone else [i]even just a computer -and don't tell me that it turns you on, because you'll be lying[/i]] on the side because you don't fulfill her "needs"?)

We lie incessantly to cover up for ourselves on an as needed basis.

And the biggest lie is when we tell ourselves, I can stop whenever I want and I will stop -just not today, maybe tomorrow.

I could go on and on with this list, and maybe I should for my own benefit. Because I do want to be an erlicher yid. My father was, my zeides are/were... and i want to be one too.

Just I'm a sicko. Poor me...

But!

I realize that the basis of their "erlichkeit" was that first and foremost they were decent people, which is a non-denominational title (laag- that means that it's not shayach only to yidden, OK?). You have to be a mentsch first. And when you are, your way will be paved to be an erlicher yid, because an erlicher mentsch is erlich in his Yiddishkeit too.

How do i know? Simple, because just as "Nem ott egy kicsit allopotos" ("there's no such thing as a little bit pregnant), there's also no such thing as a little bit "erlich" -oder yuh, oder nein.

This is not about "mitzvos", this is about being a human and not an animal -or as chaza"l hakedoishim say, worse than an animal...

E

Youch! That was beautiful...but do I sound that rough?  :o

I feel bad I haven't gotten involved in this sooner. I am a Rebbe. I think I am frum. I deal with boys all the time who need to be sold on the Torah way of life, as opposed to the secular one that is so alluring to the younger generation. And I have no idea what is so complicated here?!

I am 78 days clean today. (B"h! BA"H!) When I began my GYE journey I read the "GYE in a nutshell" pamphlet and tried to decide where I belonged. I was not comfortable with the SA or 12 step programs because I didn't think I needed it. I decided to go with the "Torah and Sechel" mehalech, and see what happens. My wife asked me if I was going to do the 12 steps and I told her that I hope not. When she didn't understand I explained that I would prefer not to go with a plan that I don't know if it has a Yiddishe Taam and a good Haskama. So why did I say "I hope not"? BECAUSE LUST IS DEADLY AND WORSE THAN ANYTHING THAT SA OR 12 STEPS COULD EVER DO TO ME!!! If I can make it work without it, GREAT!! But if it aint working, then to continue to remain addicted to porn, in order to stay true to the Torah, IS INSANE!!! If what you're doin aint workin, DO SOMETHIN ELSE!!! I say this, and I have never used or read through the 12 steps. But if at any point I would begin to regress, Chas Veshalom, I would not hesitate to go that route for one second.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand the concept. You know as a Rebbe I've seen countless situations where a parent will refuse to follow the advice of a therapist, social worker, or otherwise "secularly educated  person" because it wasn't Torah based. And R"L, I watched those same parents crying when their kids went off the Derech!!!

Rabosai!! Please be smart!! Don't throw your life away!! Don't destroy the lives of your wives and children!!! Don't Chazal teach us "Chochma Bagoyim Ta'amin"?! By all means, try to do it on your own. But if it's not working, WAKE UP, AND FIX YOUR LIFE!!

Remember: Remaining addicted to lust, in the name of Frumkeit and Hashkofa is ASININE!!! That means crazy for those who's english may be lacking.

And that's the bottom line!! (Of this post, anyway!)

Reb yid you 100 % right!
I just dont have koiach to fight right now with my lust (I know I know im stupid and ill hit the rock n roll bottom or what ever you say in English), but when ill decide to have koiach, i will look up in seforim hakdoishim whats the solution….
(by the way I know the solution its just freaking hard so I don’t do it….  By “I know the solution” I mean tshuva etc….

I realized by the posts of  EBD and dov that you talk a lot about “derech eretz” and about “mentch”, I really think its cute…. But it has nothing to do with porn…

Also what its been said in a few posts “ho low porn is”  “worse then a beheimo” its really nice but not so relevant…
Once I saw my wife nursing so I told her “you know its so funny you look like a cow”
And she answerd:
You know its so funny I just thought (she said) if I am a cow aren’t you the bull who made me pregnant?
All the aveiros that we do makes us be worse then a animal not only mas….

Any way as reb yid sais as long 12 steps don’t contradict our tora and it helps מצוה לפרסם

I just think that by next time rabeinu guard slita should consider to publish it also to the fanatics by calling it with a diffrent name and finding the mekoros in chazal and explaining  why from all the chazalim that exists he choosed what he choosed….
(he will probably never get a haskama of the gedoilei hador, cause as much as it helps ppl it can also ruin “"fresh" ppl”….)

dov wrote on 07 Apr 2011 20:41:

1. What I am saying should not be confused with LVK. He is challenging the 12 steps. I am not. I am saying they are great, just not for everyone (something I have heard many times from the great R' Dov Shlit"a).
2. I can point to myself, YKV_SChwartz, Jack, the OP of this thread and many others who after struggling for many years and not succeeding are now having a reasonable stretch of success without the 12 steps (but with GYE). (I am making no promises about tommorow - the moment I become complacent I am history)
3. I have no complaints with R' Dov Shlit"a talking about the 12 steps, this is what worked for him and that is what he should share. It is incumbent upon us who succeeded with other methods to share what worked for us (though 12 steppers should not put it down and perhaps should even listen to see if there is something that can be gained outside the context of the 12 steps

Amen!!

I have no doubt that without the ideas I learned on GYE, I would have no success, Seder program or not.  It is these proven tools that I continue to fall back on when needed.  In my original post, I only gave a small taste of where I was before I found GYE.  I had a severe, hard-wired addiction that was getting worse.  I still struggled for many weeks after the seder, and GYE gave me the tools to focus that struggle for maximum success.

My intent in posting my story was to share an ADDITIONAL (kabbalistic) tool that can be used by any Jew, regardless of what approach he may be taking.  And also to share that it is possible (for some) to make a decision to beat this addiction, use a proven approach, and succeed without relapse (at least for 2 years -- if I relapse CH"V, I'll post it).  I have been attacked from time to time by lustful thoughts, and probably always will be.  I'm still a guy, and still an addict.  I still have plenty to work on in this area.  But GYE has given me the correct weaponry to approach this particular yetzer and be victorious.  I have no doubt that without the critical attitudes and approach I learned on this site, the Seder alone would have had little lasting effect.

Again, for those who are interested, I have posted a synopsis of the Shiur in the Bais Hamedrash section of the Forum.

Thank You Reb alex!!

I very much appreciate your approach. You are open minded, and honest, and willing to do whatever is necessary to fix yourself up. I am so happy that you were able to succeed with only a little outside help, and mainly used your good Hashkafa and learning to find a path towards your own true freedom.

You are an inspiration for all of us.

Thanks for sharing!!!

i never said that 12 steps is not good, im not so stupid, if it helps ppl go say diffrently....
i just say that we have a bible and we dont need favors from goim

True חכמה בגויים תאמין but i guess that chazal didnt say חכמה בישראל תאמין cause its obvious... besides; if we use the bible than no חכמה needed just tfila tshuva zedaka.

any one that sugests to use 12 steps before sugesting to simply use the bible צריך בדיקה (but if it has mekorot in chazal no problem at all)

but its obvious that if we see that this guy reeps קורע him self apart and hes simply out of control he should use 12 steps even 13....

in my private case i still believe that i didnt manage be cause i never realy wanted too... its just freaking hard with no alternative...
ppl who have somke adiction can still put  a wooden cigar in theyr mouth... What should i do...?
its freaknig hard...

any way daven for me
my name is laag vokeles ben busha vecherpa

laagvokeles wrote on 10 Apr 2011 08:21:

With all due respect to Laag:

How do you know that you can do it with just the Torah? You keep saying how hard it is. That's true. But maybe it would be less hard if you tried something different?

You say if you have the Torah, you don't need anything else. Does that mean you can do it but you just don't want to?

If you believed that your addiction and your actions were like a poison that was killing you every day, would you be so confident that the Torah way will work for you? Would you be satisfied with your life being slowly sucked from your body without trying something new? Would you say that you will allow yourself to continue to die slowly because "it's so freaking hard"?

I think not!!!!

So what's the Pshat? Maybe your YH is keeping you "frumer" than everyone else so that you destroy your life? Maybe you don't actually believe in the "Heiligkeit" of the Torah as much as you claim to?

If you do in fact believe in the Totah, and fear Hashem, answer this for me: Is it better to keep the Torah's laws of Shmiras Habris and Shmiras Eiynayim, by getting help from a Goyishe source? Or is it better to continue to anger Hashem and destroy your Neshama, because you are so Machmir on not looking for help from the outside??

If you can honestly answer this question by saying "I would rather be Over Aveiros Chamuros, as long I don't do the 12 steps", then you need more help than this forum can provide. And if you continue to say that you don't need them, you had better overcome it or at least make some real progress without them, or you will continue to make a fool out of yourself.

And please don't insult my intelligence by repeating again that the 12 steps won't help you without ever trying it. Please.

I'm sorry for being so strong. It just rubs me the wrong way when people look down at others who are taking the necessary steps to fix themselves, all in the name of "Frumkeit". It is nauseating to me.  > > >

But I still wish you a complete recovery, and if you do it without the 12 steps and only using the Torah, nobody will be happier for you than me. Just stop talking and do something about it!!!!

No disclaimers here. This IS what I believe.

1 - For somebody to say that anything not written by "Frume Yidden" is automatically Kefira, without ever reading or seeing it, is himself being a Kofer in what Chazal teach us that Chochma Bagoyim Ta'amin. They also should never allow their wives to get a college degree. (Or maybe if it's for parnassa then Kefira is ok, but not for Aveiros Chamuros ???) They should never use any early childhood interventions, or any doctor who is not well versed in the Rambam's medical journals.

2 - If he were in fact dying from a disease which could possibly be cured with the 12 steps, do you think it wise to determine for yourself, without ever reading them, that it is Kefira? Or maybe, just maybe, you would at least consult a COMPETENT UNBIASED RAV and ask Daas Torah if it is Kefira and permitted or not.

The bottom line is, you Yosef Hatzadik have made a valiant effort to be Melamed Zechus on an opinion that stems entirely from the Yetzer Hara. I respect you for that. But it is ludicrous.

I am going to assume that Me3 is correct in that the YH is DANCING up there listening to the stupidity posted by 1 individual on this forum. The truth is that I feel like you Yosef are right in that he is living a life of "Ruach Shtus", not only in his addiction, but in his justification as well. I don't think he belongs on this forum, only because I don't believe he is truly interested in helping himself. I am only posting so that any innocent reader who does have a true desire to fix himself up will not be discouraged by the negativity and insanity of a fellow sufferer.

And now I understand why Dov had to take a leave of absence from the forum. Because of posters like this.

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