rebbetzin 7up and trying  iwas pressured by you both to write

where is my feedback??
did I offend you by questioning our BY system?
It was not my intent.
The teachers should look in the mirror and look at the GASS and see where is the disconnect.

I am not saying that ch'v anyone should lower their standards .No way.But a put together well dressed tznius teacher will get throught he hearts of our youth.

We loved welled dressed rabbeim!

thats one point

TBC..

Forgive me R'Bardichev. YOu are 100% correct to wonder where we are are after such an amazing post. I was going to reply at length tom, but now that you have asked, will not push it off another second.

I fully agree about those running the 'system' needing to check no only their mirrors, but those of their students too. Very different images would show up in both. A manhig needs to understand the needs of his dor in order to be efficient. I've spent much time arguing this very point with both teachers as well as students.



Whenever I think of beauty, I think of my new daughter-in-law be'h. She is one of the most beautiful girls I've seen. Her skin is not 100% clear, her lips are often chapped, and her hands look as if she's been working hard, because she has. None of her features stand out as anything special. None of you would be triggered by her ch'v.
But she is a tzadekes, plain and simple. At the vort, we were told by everyone that she is simply not from this dor in her Yiras Shamayim and ahavas Hashem. And the more I get to know her, the more I see how they underestimated. And that purity shines through from her pnimius, creating what I think is a real glow around her. She is externally beautiful ONLY BECAUSE OF HER PNIMIUS.
That inner beauty cant be hidden.
Makeup would simply hide her real chein.

I on the other hand, will need another 120 years to reach where my 21 year old daughter-in-law is already. I need the makeup and perfume. Ezra Hanavi (I thik it was Ezra) commanded the peddlers of his day to deliver perfumes and makeup to the wives of Bnei Yisrael, and as you said, it came down with the Mann too. These external tools are acceptable (I mean; a 'haskama' from Hashem Himself has to mean something!).

The REAL nekuda is moderation.
 

I humbly suggest a differrnt NEKUDAH

BALANCE

WOMEN WERE GIVEN ABINAH YISEIRAA FOR THIS REASON

MEN ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE (LIKE ME)

WOMEN WERE GIVEN EXTRA BINAH

TO BALANCE THE INTERNAL/EXTERNAL!!

MAZEL TOV! ON YOUR DAUGHTER IN LAW!!

MOST OF US WOULD LOVE TO COME TO THE CHASSUNAH!!

BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE

A WOMAN NEEDS TO GAUGE HER HUSBANDS NEEDS

HOW TO EFFECTIVELY HOLD HIM HAPPY AT HOME IS HER BINAH YISSEIRAH

YESSS WE ALL KNOW H**-CHANIE ON THE STRRET IS COLD CHANIE AT HOME

BALANCE BALANCE LIKE THE MAN ON THE TIGHTROPE!!!

b

PS I AM TRYING TO FIND YOU A PICTURE

and as Rav Pam ztl said the false outside is 0.The true inside is 1.

If a woman has the true inside(yiraas hashem),then the 1 becomes a 10 when the external beauty is added to it.but this is only if the yiras hashem is truely inside.If not,then it's all a 0.

the 0 of a typical hollywood actress.nothing there.empty.zero.

the yiddishe aishes chayil on the other hand is a 10 to her husband.nothing better.

bardichev wrote on 04 Aug 2009 20:36:


Sorry, I wasn't on till now.
I think you are 1000% right.
(sorry 7up, either it's bec. in Israel now it's different, or you were  a teenager a teensy bit too long ago. )
I always had the question which bardichev explained. Why did it say about our imahos beauty if it isn't imp? I know all the mefarshim...etc. but what about the pshat?
None of my teachers wanted to answer that. They actually said that the torah wasn't talking about physical beauty at all. All of you will never imagine what it's like being a teen in today's b.Y system. I'm writing this full of hurt  and hope that things will change. Hashem created women in such a way that they like to feel beautiful .Our teachers always portrayed anything pretty as shallow and superficial.
Squashing this need will not help. Redirecting it to true beauty might.
They not only dressed in a way that made you think , ' hey I'd love to be as pious as her , but if that means I must look like that, then forget it'. But they actually would call you over if you looked too good, and look for something wrong. It was SOOO frustrating. I was never told that I'm allowed to look pretty and felt guilty if I thought I looked good. (Hence the question I once asked on my thread about what to do when dressed for a wedding).

Oh, I almost forgot. 'till you come to the stage of shidduchim…. Now the whole world MUST know exactly which size you are and I KID YOU NOT- mothers of potential boyz have asked me such exact details of the girls' bodies , that I can't even post them. YES, those same mechanchim who preached day and night of how HEVEL beauty is, can now only focus on the external. If this is not hypocritical, then what is???????????????????

this topic is sooo important

if we truly knew how to find balance balance balance

we would not have as many problems

TrYiNg is 100000% right

something is wrong with the system ( I hate being negative)

Girls are told pashtus pnimius  internalize etc..( without real explanation)

Then poof shidduchim it is anything but...

Teachers if you didn't find thid forum yet yes you are HOLY and out of touch

We can not change the way Hashem created the world

If someone is BaCheint why is she labled superficiand shallow

Does it not say in the mishnah ( I think mishnah is a Chaza"l)

Hanoy Vihakoach vihabanim naa-eh litzaddikim vi-naaeh liolam

vkullan niskaaymu biRebbi uBanav

yes we can drash it around

a woman of valor the Eishes Chayil

Heee Tishalal  only her no one else yes that true

what ever happened to Yiddishe Chein??

I think Tu b"av is the perfect time to re-think

if what we are feeding our youth is Toras Imecha or not

b

bardichev,

Did I hear you say "Balance?"

Yup that's what it is!

E.L.

I humbly and happily am mevater my das to the Rebbe. You are right, that is the nekudah which can save the dor.

tRyInG, I dont see where we are dissagreeing. External looks have a very important place in life, as long as we  dont OVER emphasize and make it the overall goal. The goyishe world has placed so much emphasis on the physical, that we have a generation of anorexics and low self esteem if not everyone wears a size 2. The physical is meant as a tool, not a goal in itself.

Unfortunately, I fully agree about the problem in the BY system. I do not want to go into detail as it is an open forum and ch'v we should cause a chilul Hashem via those who are not involved. As I said, a teacher must understand the dor s/he is leading.

Shidduchim hjave got way out of control in my opinion. The questions and priorities do not reflect well on us at all. A wake up / shake up is called for before we destroy a generation with our shtuss. Everything from plastic tableclothes, dress size and 1st grade report card must be tossed as far as we can throw them.

Its Tu' B'Av; lets utilize the koach hayom to daven that we should all attain clarity - and BALANCE.

I posted this on my thread, but raelize it probably belongs here:


In gemorah Taanis it brings down that one of the reasons we celebrate Tu B'Av is because on this day Am Yisrael was allowed to bury the dead of Beitar.
According to some opinions, 4 million Yidden were murdered in Beitar. 4 million!
And for this, we are happy and celebrate the happiest day of the year ??? ??? ???

Rav Frand discussed this question on the Chafetz Chaim foundations Tisha B'Av video. His answer is so deep. (with a bissel of my own understanding in it)

After months lying out in the sun, with wild animals all around and no burial, Am Yisael went to bury their dead with trepidation. They were sure they would find mutilated bodies attacked by hungry animals, decomposing an repugnant.
Their hearts were heavy as they approached. Here they were, beaten by the enemy, slaves, and broken in spirit. Millions of their brothers and sisters were murdered and the future looked even darker than the past. Hashem was angry and had abandoned them. They were all alone with no hope for tomorrow.

So what actually happened?
They reach the top of the hill overlooking Beitar. They slowly lower their eyes expecting the worst. And what do they see? Millions of bodies, but all of them intact and none decomposed at all! All lying there as if asleep, patiently awaitng Jewish burial.

And the Am broke down in tears. TEARS OF JOY! Yes; Hashem was angry; and rightfully so. But He hadnt abandoned them. The proof was right before their eyes. True, they deserved to be punished severely,  but degregation was not a part of it. Hashems love was clear through this nes. While waiting for His precious karbonos to be buried, He sat beside them Himself; guarding and protecting. And this sign,comforted them as nothing else could have.

Suddenly, there was hope for tomorrow. Things would not be easy, but at least they were not alone any more. Now that Hashem had revealed Himself dispite the darkness, they found the inner strength to continue.

Galus is dark, but with Hashem at our side, there is always hope for tomorrow.

Our addictions are dark, but with Hashem at our side, there is always hope for tomorrow!
And if HE hasnt given up on us, how can we give up on ourselves?!

TrYiNg wrote on 05 Aug 2009 02:38:

TrYiNg,

Your vision is 20/20.

After too many years of Galus, many people are now asking the Shidduchim questions you are referring to. But from reading your posts, these might not be people who you would want to be Mishadech with anyway.

There is no way that the beauty mentioned by the Torah was only inner beauty or else Paro or Avimelech's guards  wouldn't of noticed them and Avraham wouldn't have been worried about Sarah.

Also, when the Torah said that Leah was not beautiful, does that mean that she didn't have inner beauty? Checkmate

I think the Torah mentioned the physical beauty of the Imahos because like any other positive trait, it has to be put in the correct perspective, that it was a gift from Hashem and not "self made". When looking at positive traits from that perspective, they are really a Nisayon in Emunah since believing that you had something to do with it is Kefira.

We can now appreciate why the Torah does talk about beauty, since it was a praise to those were described as "beautiful", because their beauty didn't get in the way of their Avodas Hashem. In other words, just like other Nisyonos, their beauty became another tool to climb higher.

It is poshut that everyone should use their G-d given talents to their fullest extent. So the million dollar question is how do you use physical beauty to be beautiful, while at the same time adhering to the guidelines of Kol Kvoda Bas Melech Penima/Tznius?

I hope the Heiliga Chevra can help here - maybe Guard has something written up about it.

My Pintele thought is that it is much easier to know what not to do than what you should do. The clothes you wear, how you wear it, the makeup, hair style etc.... all have to be Penima - low key. Then your outer and inner beauty will shine. I am in the business world and the most attractive women are those who dress very business like. Also the way you "walk" in the street is so important. Those who "strut" are not beautiful, they seem to me as people with self esteem issues and need a therapist.

How beautiful are the girls who walk in the street in a way that you hear their Pintele screaming "I don't want to be Machshil you"!

A side but very personal point, the others might not feel this way. When I"Y"H B'karov, you will greet your husband when he comes home from work/Yeshiva, make sure that you look beautiful for him. (In our twisted world, we find that women dress up for everyone except their husbands.) This has to be done with Sechel, but I am confident that you know what I mean.

I hope I answered a pintele of your questions.

Pintele Yid

Also, when the Torah said that Leah was not beautiful, does that mean that she didn't have inner beauty? Checkmate

It does not say she was ugly

7Up wrote on 05 Aug 2009 13:03:


Beautiful and profound.  Thanks for sharing!

bardichev wrote on 05 Aug 2009 21:00:


If her eyes were "Rakos" because she was crying to Hashem not to fall into the Goral of Eisav, then you can't beat such beautiful eyes.

One thing is for sure. The reason why Yackov was not interested in Leah was not because of her lack of physical beauty.

Anyone who thinks that this was the reason, is probably asking the wonderful Shiduch questions TrYiNg was refering to.

Pintele Yid

Its so funny that this topic is being discussed becuase my first year as a frum bochur back in the day (3 years ago.ah,how time flies when youre an  addict)i was extremely puzzled by the progression in the pasuk.it says "rachel was exceedingly beautiful and leah had soft eyes and yackov loved leah".pretty hard to explain,yea?but when i posed the question at the shabbos meal,pple were like what?it doesnt mean she was ugly she just had soft eyes!
whatever!
but seriously i never heard a good answer.i searched through many meforshim that shabbos and didnt really find anything.

I will share the vort though:
"False is grace,and futile is beauty,but fear of Hashem shall be praised."
The question is:is beauty is futile,then why does the Torah Hakedosha meantion so many times the beauty of Sarah Imeinu and others?
The Gra answers the deepest answer.Beauty without Torah is like a ring on a pig.Not worth anything.But if there is godliness and holiness within,then the beauty is an expression of that holiness and it is praiseworthy.
Reflect on this.Im going to watch Harav Amnon Yitzchak.My list of addictions just grew longer

avadde nisht

we have no hasagah in the heiliger avos hakdoshim see the ohr hachaim hakadosh in parshas vayechi for a hint of the kedusha of yaakov aveenu

what TrYiNg is TrYiNg to say and me in my unsophisticated NY style bluntness is saying

The mixed messages and the teachers and rabbeim who are out of touch with todays youth are doing a dis-service as holy and admirable their job is.

Like she said if the teacher appears in the eyes of the girls as a person they DO NOT WANT TO BE
how can they teach??
Go down to the lowest common denominator no way!! but balance binah yiseirahh!!

I had a wonderful rebbe who I would walk into his office every morning after shachriss
Every morning right after shachriss he called his wife to see how the morning went( the job had him in yeshivah) I would say Rebbe should I leave the room ? He would answer no,I want you to hear how to speak to your future wife!!!

Now thats a rebbe!! big hat big beard MAN was he good looking  and put together!!
yes a role model!! not a model a role model!! a living example what a prince of Torah could and should be!!
b