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Halacha shailah...
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Im Paga be’cha menuval zeh, mushchei'hu le- BEIS HAMEDRASH! This board is for divrei Torah relating to our struggle with the Yetzer Hara, from the entire spectrum of Tanach, Chazal, Mussar and Chassidus. On this board there will be no posts about personal struggles and no debates. Only TORAH CHIZUK.

TOPIC: Halacha shailah... 7703 Views

Re: Halacha shailah... 17 Dec 2009 09:28 #35385

  • kanesher
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I am going to take a risky delve into interpeting Dovish -

Dov is trying to tell you that your focus is wrong. Your "whole question" should be elsewhere; iyh after a year of recovery we can discuss the hallahic and haskafchis ins and outs. Our focus needs to be on the nature of our addiction, not the fire and brimestone. Seriously FORGET ABOUT the rest. Just recovery. Time teshuva is later.

I think that's what Dov means. I may be totally wrong
Last Edit: by leibschumacher.

Re: Halacha shailah... 18 Dec 2009 00:56 #35638

  • Dov
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Kanesher is right on, as far as I am concerned.

A frum yid, a lamdan, starts doing something that is really, really stupid. He does it once. He does it again. He regrets it each time and feels terrible about it. Slowly he makes this stupid mistake fifty times and it starts to get expanded into something even more stupid. When he thinks it over her realizes he is, in fact, acting like a total idiot. He therefore hides his behavior and only does it in the utmost secrecy and privacy. He continues acting like a jackass for ten years and finds out that he better not let his wife get wind of it, for it'd mess their marriage up a great deal. He is violating trust and undermining his own self respect by acting this immature and idiotic way, but finds he tries but cannot succeed at stopping. He figures he is just a moron. After all, he is doing the same really dumb stuff habitually. Think up something dumb. Anything. And he can't stop!
You'd agree that he's got some kind of serious mental problem, seriously, no?

Would you say this fellow has a problem dealt with in s'forim? Mishlei spends a lot of time telling us not to be jerks. Have you checked it out? It also talks a lot about alcoholism, womanizing, gambling, raging, and lusting. It doesn't matter if it's in a sefer. It can stay in the sefer and do no good at all. To me, the more relevant question may be why there is no group movement of people in Yiddishkeit to deal with these issues, not "is there a sefer that outlines something like a program" or not. (And BTW, there are plenty that outline a program like this one.)

Consider reading the silly story above again, but substitute the "stupid behavior" he was doing with compulsive porn surfing, masturbation, phone calls, or any other form of lust acting out behavior. After all, don't you agree  that doing all or any of these things is, in fact, just plain stupid?
Yet we do them, anyway, don't we? Even though they are stupid and we are smart.

Or are we?

If you find you keep doing this stuff even though it's stupid, then what does being a nut have to do with yiddishkeit at all?
That is what I'd like to know.
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
Last Edit: 23 Dec 2009 14:05 by nousername.

Re: Halacha shailah... 18 Dec 2009 01:01 #35640

  • imtrying25
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Wow Dov the truth hurts, the truth hurts. But i could use this hurt. Ill only gain off of it. Thanks again for all your amazing posts.
Last Edit: by ilanavrum.

Re: Halacha shailah... 18 Dec 2009 01:08 #35643

  • Kollel Guy
Point well taken R' Dov, I was asking out of curiosity, not for validation purposes.
Last Edit: by retghg.

Re: Halacha shailah... 18 Dec 2009 01:32 #35657

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I'll give you validation anyway.
I love you, I love your curiosity, and I love your honesty. There. 
Now find out what you need to do.
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
Last Edit: by kiddushhashem.

Re: Halacha shailah... 20 Dec 2009 16:11 #36094

  • the.guard
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feeling better already, after my daily dose of dov... 
Webmaster of www.guardyoureyes.org - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
Last Edit: by moisheburich.

Re: Halacha shailah... 23 Dec 2009 04:30 #37106

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I hope that this would be the place to post this question.

Does anyone have anything to say about whether it is possible to transgress the sins of loshon horah, mevayesh borabim and other sins
of shmiras haloshon, prohibited speech, on a forumn, where the name of the individual is ananymous? Can you insult a pseudonym? The owner will usually feel bad though, regardless, as far as that goes.

I have a feeling that this is/could be a problem but do not have any clarity.
Last Edit: 23 Dec 2009 04:34 by 2bfree99.

Re: Halacha shailah... 23 Dec 2009 05:44 #37108

  • Kollel Guy
1)Who said that all because the guys name is anon - nobody will put 2 and 2 together?
2)If the guy himself reads it it's for sure at least Ona'as devorim.
3)It's speaking badly about a jew, so without a really important reason, it's a problem regardless.
4)A pseudonym doesn't really work, people are curious and look out for these things, and suspect that the writer would try to throw everybody off.

Maybe what you could do is change the story, and try to replace the case with similar actions that sort of have the same meaning.
Last Edit: by asker.

Re: Halacha shailah... 23 Dec 2009 14:25 #37173

  • Dov
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You bring up great points!
The entire yesod of recovery appears to be admiting the truth about myself to myself. And it has to be safe to do that. That's exactly why we stick with other addicts.
The AAs found they couldn't do that well without also admitting it to others, as well. They also had to admit it to their G-d. (Just spend two minutes reading through the steps and 12 traditions.)
So, here is the problem for me:
If I keep the dirty truth about me a secret from my recovery people, I'll die - and take my family and others with me in some way.
If I divulge the truth about my behavior - holding nothing back and w/o regard to shame at all - then there is at least some hope for me.
If someone here is disgusted with my behavior or rants about what a chillul Hashem I did, etc., then it's just too damn bad, I guess. They don't understand recovery and all I can say is 'good luck' to them admitting the truth about their own crapola. They just don't know any better yet.
But I have no other options.
Do you?

Having acted like a lunatic is no excuse for doing more stupid stuff and endangering ourselves further. But where are you going to go but to other addicts in recovery? I have found that "normals" do not understand the insanity of addiction and can only be sympathetic, at best.
Hashem will help you get exactly what you need to stop acting out by providing you with whatever you are looking for that makes you need to act out, as long as you get out of His way...luckily He needs very little space!
Hatzlocha, chaver!
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
Last Edit: by cookiedough.

Re: Halacha shailah... 23 Dec 2009 20:27 #37354

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Kollel Guy wrote on 23 Dec 2009 05:44:


1)Who said that all because the guys name is anon - nobody will put 2 and 2 together?
2)If the guy himself reads it it's for sure at least Ona'as devorim.
3)It's speaking badly about a jew, so without a really important reason, it's a problem regardless.
4)A pseudonym doesn't really work, people are curious and look out for these things, and suspect that the writer would try to throw everybody off..

Reb K.G.,
Okay, on 2) and 3) I was thinking the same thing.  On 1) and 4), are you saying that people may figure out who the actual person is? 
I was thinking about this forumn and others as well, like the comments on news articles. Of course here there is a good reason for discussing what others say. On the news sites, I don't see why it is allowed in
general.
Last Edit: by urgr8.

Re: Halacha shailah... 23 Dec 2009 21:22 #37397

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In the realm of recovery land - let's say a 12 step group - Dov , as usual is right -

How can someone go to a therapist to speak about someone abusing if no the abusers isn't hurting anyone now? It's clear 100% in Halacha that speaking, when the speaking itself has purpose, is clearly called Toe'eles - because the speaking brings us closer to recovery, as Dov so eloquently described.

The Chafetz Chaim is meramez to this in a footnote in Klal 20, and suggest that "perhaps" speaking to another person to let loose a worry would go under the catergory of "Dagah Ish Yasichena" and hence permissibile under toeles. I believe he is tentative about it because he doesn't want the heter abused - the same reason he is ambiliavent about many other things. Chafetz Chaim was written to omed b'paretz.

Certainly a 12 step group, a therapy session, a sponsor - etc. - are all considered toeles.

Of course, silly arguements and lashon hara on the bottom of silly websites are certainly forbidden. The sites themselves rely on the heter of b'apey telasa, that the information they speak of is already disseminated- which is questionable, assuming the intention is not to embarass the subject.

Last Edit: by tshepojosephmafifi.

Re: Halacha shailah... 23 Dec 2009 22:33 #37424

  • Kollel Guy
Chazak wrote on 23 Dec 2009 20:27:

Kollel Guy wrote on 23 Dec 2009 05:44:


1)Who said that all because the guys name is anon - nobody will put 2 and 2 together?
2)If the guy himself reads it it's for sure at least Ona'as devorim.
3)It's speaking badly about a jew, so without a really important reason, it's a problem regardless.
4)A pseudonym doesn't really work, people are curious and look out for these things, and suspect that the writer would try to throw everybody off..

Reb K.G.,
Okay, on 2) and 3) I was thinking the same thing.  On 1) and 4), are you saying that people may figure out who the actual person is? 
I was thinking about this forumn and others as well, like the comments on news articles. Of course here there is a good reason for discussing what others say. On the news sites, I don't see why it is allowed in
general.
That's precisely why rabbonim want to assur all jewish news sites. Because it inevitably leads to pure lashon hara.
Last Edit: by joshster78.

Re: Halacha shailah... 25 Dec 2009 16:11 #38069

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Interesting points were made. This of course is a shailoh that only a rov can answer. However, it is hard to find a rov who knows what goes on  on the internet from first hand knowledge. (Unless he is chover of this site.    )
Regardless of that, there is always someone to ask even though it may take some searching. (No, not with Google.>>>)
Last Edit: 25 Dec 2009 16:16 by charlie894.
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