Well thanks guys, that does make sense i guess...
I mean, i've been doing really well since my last fall, which just happened to be the day before i joined the gue crew (2 days ago), and the ikkar issue for me was that i would forget my weaknesses and get too confident. But since here - i keep myself aware of my goal and what will get me there, it's been a whole different expirience. Here i got a whole new perspective on the benifits of knowledge about the nature of this thing, and how the best way to win is not to allow the fight to start in the 1st place. Up till now my only weapons were my seforim. But recently i've begun to notice that this isn't really a sefer issue.
I gained a whole lot of knowledge from all the hours i spent, thinking about why i would do things i didn't want to do and hated so much, but that's for another thread, outside the beis.
Meantime, Hodu l-shhem ki tov!! I feel like a free man, i want this to last, and i'm ready to finally head down the correct path to recovery.

Kollel Guy wrote on 10 Dec 2009 18:42:


Kollel Guy, YOU ROCK, MAN!!! You got it!! Now go put a feather in that Stetson. After all, it ships with one...

That IS what being addicted is all about. It's like an allergy, some people are allergic, some are not, it's how Hashem made us, and like I've said, it's part of His individual plan for us. The allergy never goes away. You can wait another 20 years between bites of peanut butter, and then WAMMO you can't breathe, and you hit yourself and say "I shoulda known better..."

So how do we best avoid the fight from the beginning?

The BIG emergency first aid plan, which we got from the 12 steps discussions, is to realize the YH hides in the dark and then SUDDENLY jumps out at you, makes you feel like you've gotta act and make your choice right away, and not give you time to think, just react, which usually means a fall. And he knows EXACTLY what the best ways are to get your attention. He even got Rebbe Akiva to drop everything and swim after him, cuz he knew exactly what kind of IMAGE would knock down even the greatest Tzaddik's barriers.

DON'T LET HIM FOOL YOU! You've got time. Stop, look away, don't confront him yet, just count to ten or more, take some deep breaths, the urge will lessen, then walk away & do something else, think about something else. YOU KNOW what'll happen if you even GO NEAR that peanut. You're allergic, you won't be able to stop 'cuz it's not in your control. If you think you are, you're fooling yourself. Just look at your track record: "Yeah, I can quit smoking any time I want! I've quit 5 times already...!"

And if C"V you fall, just say "sorry Tatty, I'm trying, but i need more time..." Dust yourself off, climb back on the horse and keep on riding. We're all only human, "trying to do the best we can."

Just don't get down on yourself. Don't call yourself names.

Focus on turning the experience it into something positive - figure out what was the trigger that tripped you up, and what response you want to have done instead, and play back that scenario in your mind, going the way you want it to. Like when we learned to drive, we imagined (it's called visualization) like a movie how we would handle spinning on ice, so in case the time comes we would be programmed to act that way.

As Mustafa told his son, "You are greater than what you have become..." (sorry 'bout the reference, but at least it's Disney...)

Now, as R' Shlomo Friefeld ztk"l would say, BE BIG.  

Rage ATM wrote on 11 Dec 2009 03:44:


I second the motion!

Wow STEVE that was an amzing post. I would start quoting which parts I liked the best but that would just be the whole thing! I can see DC's program is having a true effect on you. Keep it up!

Kedusha wrote on 11 Dec 2009 03:59:


He's referring to a series of stories recorded in Gemara Kiddushin (80a-81a) where Hashem demonstrated the power of the y"h on some of of the Tanoim who had felt powerful over it and belittled it's influence:

The Gemara relates that the satan presented himself to R' Akivah as a nude women in a treetop. He became so inflamed by her that he was unable to resist, and he started to climb the tree so he could sin with her. Halfway up the tree, the women turned into the satan and said: "If it wouldn't be that it had been said in the Heavens to respect R' Akivah and his teachings, I'd take your life!". A similar story is recorded with R' Meir swimming across a river to sin with a women, and upon reaching the halfway point, the women turned into the satan, rebuking him with those same words.

Yiddle2 wrote on 11 Dec 2009 04:06:


And I second that!  

2B

Thanx, guys.

This Crew is THE BEST!!

Kollel Guy, you MUST join a Call with DC one day, it'll turn your whole life around. I'm sure the other sponsors are just as good, but Duvid Chaim is all I really know, and man, he's got STYLE.

Thanx Yiddle for giving us the reference and correcting my memory of the sugya.

I guess this shakla-v'tarya was good, cuz Reb Guard put it up today on the Chizuk email. Hey Kollel Dude, do you get them? Make sure you do, and READ them daily. They're really good, and if you write well, you get to see your "persona-nom-gratta" in print!

Habe a GREAT SHABBOS and a LICHTIGE CHANUKAH!!

Kollel Guy wrote on 10 Dec 2009 18:42:


Rabbenu Yonah teaches us the first step in Teshuva is Asivas HaChet - end of story. Asivas HaChet - do whatever you have to do to get rid of it. The other 23 are for after you're not going to go back.

All means necessary means -
-Looking at it as an addiction
-Findings a therapist
-A 12 step group
-A Sponsor -


etc. The seforim all come AFTER we get rid of this. NOT before. Trust us.

I think the idea is that seforim are never meant to tell you exactly how to do your avodas hashem. They can't, because every person has a different avodas hashem. They can only give you a general framework. And as kanesher pointed out, step one is azivas hacheit, and for that, you need to treat this as an addiction. Which it is.

Nothing wrong with learning in the meantime, and even learning about teshuva. But always remember that part of teshuva is understanding what's going on and how to stop it. And you need the proper framework here to stop it, including all the steps that Kanesher said.

silentbattle wrote on 13 Dec 2009 07:25:

Definitely true. However there was a time when the response to any problem which entailed an issur in the torah - was "improve your yiras shomayim". This 'time' was from day six until whenever the www was created. In fact none of the classic seforim in our possesion even mention such a concept as being 'addicted to an aveirah'.  I don't quite know how we are supposed to view this never-witnessed-before phenominon in terms of bechirah and teshuva.

To be honest with you im a believer that everything is in the books somewhere we just dont know where. I have found something in a sefer which deals with the likes of addiction. Although it doesnt say it straight out its basically what hes referring to.

Really! Where?

Its a sefer called Divrei Yehoshua. I have to check it up to be more specific about where in the sefer it is.

Kollel Guy wrote on 15 Dec 2009 19:30:


This idea has been discussed in the Gemara and the seforim.  See Rambam Hilchos Teshuvah perek 6, halacha 3-5 (there is a secret gem find there for fighting addictions if you read it carefully.)  See Rambam Shemone Perakim, chapter 8 as well for similar yesodos where he proves the idea of "addiction" from pesukim from hoshea.  See the yad hakatana perek 2, where he addresses these rambams.  See Yad hakana perek 1, where he explains how an addict should say vidui and why he should be saying vidui even though he know he is addicted.  See my thread over here,which outlines all the yesodod from succa 52.  Pay close attention to at section #12, entitled "From Passerby To master of the House", IT IS SCARY! Also, look at my thread over here, where I brought down a few important gemaras. I made a reference to kiddushin 20a, which is fundamental gemara for understanding addictions, in terms of what causes it and how to heal from it.  There is so much on this topic, I was hopping to write an article called, "Addiction:Losing control", which was part of my succa series.  But never even finished the first article, called, identifying the yetzer hara. Gotta Run, going out to dinner with my family now.  Be back later.

You may be completely different than I, but maybe not, so I'll share:

Facing the facts about myself has been of value to me in getting free one day at a time. And to do that I need to be explicit and totally open with (safe) others.
By contrast, understanding how my problem and it's solution fits into my understanding of Torah was of no use use at all in changing my behavior.
If it matterred enough to stop me, then i'd have not habitually and frequently done so many things that I knew were wrong in the first place! I knew in my heart that it was wrong from day 1, even though I knew nothing about halacha then.

So, knowing the issur (I read Yesod Yosef - the one that the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch refers to, not the one written by the rebbi of the Kav Hayashar) and its damage and gravity, helped me know exactly how guilty, confused, and afraid of punishment to be. That was all. Those things got me good and desperate....to act out some more in order to feel better.
Actually, maybe it stopped me twice. And to the shmuz I heard that "the whole thing was worth it even just to stop you from doing it those two times!," I say: Very nice, but tell that to the devastated wife and wrecked family that developed over years of sick behavior and a hidden double life. Those scars may never heal for generations. It's no consolation for them that your Olam Haba is a bit better because "at least tatty or mommy were spared from acting out a few times..." They (and we) need recovery.
Today. Period.

Hatzlocha.

OK, I'm not saying we should all throw out our handbooks and head for gemara instead. I believe that what the torah would tell a person in this situation, is go through the the treatment, and not "do better teshuvah". I just would like to see an example of how the seforim address an issue like this. Maybe there's a responsa sefer out there which dealt with such a situation. It seems very unlikely that there would be potential for such an obvious problem - sown into the world at it's creation, and the world's blueprint would make no mention of it. That's really my whole question