Kollel Guy wrote on 09 Dec 2009 20:46:


ADARABA.  Real Teshuva would not be possible in the first place without GUE!

Stick around, you'll see.

Regarding the whole to-do before, I think RAGE was using the 5th chelek of the SHulchan Aruch, which we can't forget is necessary for halacha as much as the other 4.

Welcome to the forum Kollel GYE, and good luck!

  --Eye.

Leave the teshuva out of this kollel guy. Im serious. We gotta focus on our sickness and when were healed completely then well get to the teshuvah process.

imtrying25 wrote on 09 Dec 2009 21:53:
What do you mean "healed completely"?

Remember a nazir shouldn't walk near grapes, a man shouldn't walk on the same side of a street as a house of ill repute, or walk right behind women for that matter. That's about protectzia from the YH, which as DC & the Big Book says comes upon one SUDDENLY, so fast they forget to think. (All aveiros only come from temporary insanity).

So the tshuvah from SA we achieve here with GYE will be FREEDOM from the DESIRE for lust, and at that moment our teshuva will be complete, we will demonstrate that we really b'etzem have no desire to ever go back to that aveira, and Hashem WILL attest to that emes. Will we be tested again in life? You bet. And when that moment comes, we will either not be tempted or need chizuk to avoid giving into the temptation. But NOT because we WANT to do the aveira, but because we DON'T want to, because we KNOW it's poison for us, like an addict who understands this allergy should know, and that is the difference. WE WILL BE FIGHTING TO STAY AWAY from going NEAR the aveira, not trying to climb out of the brothel like we are now (only metaphor, guys, metaphor...). So our holy brothers and sisters here at GYE WILL be necessary for us, but not because our tshuvah will be incomplete.

Infact, it is MORE complete BECAUSE we have added precautions to distance ourselves more than before:

Sefer Tomar Devorah, which I recommend highly (there's a small blue copy with nekudos and english translation, divided daily into a monthly limud) explains what it means that "in the place where a baal teshuvah stands, Tzaddikim cannot stand." Briefly, this world was created with the letter Hey, not a Ches, because if one falls out the bottom by doing aveiros, with tshuva he can still get back in through the openning on the side. But, he asks, why can't the baal tshuva go back the way he came, to stand again with the tzaddikim who never fell; why does need a different entrance? He answers because it wouldn't be good enough for him - now that he "broke the fence" once, he'll too easily fall thru it again. He needs to work harder, climb to a HIGHER opening (madrega) to get back fully into Hashem's arms, by adding more protectzia and guards for himself than he needed before. Then his place inside the Hey is ON TOP OF, ABOVE the place at the inside bottom of the Hey where the Tzaddikim still stand. He's now right under the roof, the Gag, that is Hashem's protective shechinah.

I'll add also, that the 12 step program shows that a big part of the revovery, the teshuvah, is the giving back and helping others. So in the future we'll not only need the chizuk of GYE, but WE will be the one's helping to admin the newbies ourselves. WE'LL be the Dovs with a 10+ year cleanliness.

Of course, there will only be ONE Reb Guard. Now and Forever.

Kollel Guy wrote on 09 Dec 2009 22:13:

I mean when we feel confident enough that we wont go back "there". A complete azivas hacheit. Which by the way R' Yonah says comes first when we are a shanah v'chatah.

WE'RE NOT A BUNCH OF RESHAIM THAT HAVE TO DO TESHUVA.

WE'RE A BUNCH OF ADDICTS WHO HAVE TO GET OFF OUR DRUGS [LUST] AND SUFFER THE DUE WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS AND FACE REAL LIFE [12 steps recommended, and probably required].

THEN, WE'RE NOT CRAZY ANYMORE.

ONCE WE'RE NOT CRAZY, THEN WE CAN DO TESHUVA.

A CRAZY PERSON CAN'T DO TESHUVA.

YOU NEED DA'AS.

WE'VE LOST OUR DA'AS.  WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER OURSELVES.

Thanks eyeballer. That was basically what i was trying to say just in more "kollel guy"ish language.

Guys, guys, please see the whole of Tomim2b's post on the chizuk email. and if you're not subscribed, please get it. The main point i forgot earlier, he reminded me:

I started seeing things different when I realized that I don't have to fight. During our very first days on the call, Duvid Chaim told us that we weren't going to fight anymore and that we wouldn't even need to! Duvid Chaim insisted that we can be normal again! Shocked by what I heard, I felt I needed to call him up personally for a more detailed discussion in which Duvid Chaim spelled out for me how the program takes us to a healthy place where I'll no longer need a filter on my computer, where I'll be able to walk the streets, go to the bank, the supermarket, and even look or talk to the woman behind the counter without lusting her. Wow! That was news for me! "I can live in the real world without lusting!?".

So it's possible to get to a place, like Rav Dessler's Bechirah point idea, where we will not have a YH for lust, just like I no longer have a cheishik for Arhur Treacher's fish-n-chips. I forgot that point earlier.

Im & Eye,

Yes we're addicts. Yes, we are allergic to lust. But I made myself into one. I USED TO BE A CUCUMBER. It's my OWN FAULT that I became a pickle. That's what I need to do teshuvah on, where I HAD A PART IN THIS, where my being selfish etc. paved the way for my response to life that got me here. The lust itself is just a symptom of the real problem.

HOWEVER, since Hashem placed these influences in front of me and i never had the proper guidance to not keep at it, HE KNEW that I would end up this way. BUT HE HAS A PURPOSE. Perhaps THIS is the tikkun I need in this lifetime. So it's a chesed from Him that I'd fallen this far, only so that I can climb back to Him, BE"H greater than I've ever been in this or any other life. And now He has in his infinte kindness provided us all with GYE, the very tools we need to succeed in this Holy Task.

So, Eye, please let me correct you. We don't have control over our LUSTING, but we DO have control over OURSELVES, over our selfishness, our need to control, our fear of loss, etc. THAT's where teshuvah comes in. And it doesn't mean we're Reshaim. It means we're human, but need to work on our Tikkun.

Sorry Kollel Guy if this is not so black & white like a page in Shulchan Orach. But it sure is more exciting.

Whoops. Maybe I have to do Tshuvah on that.... :

Maybe I'm wrong, but the way I see it is that our involvement in GYE, and the 12 steps, or whatever we're using to get out of our addiction, is a tool that we're using for our teshuva.

In other words, for our particular situation, and our own particular sick attachment to these aveiros, the way to stop doing them (which is part of teshuva) is by using these methods.

I think that different nisyonos are different for different people, and in a deep way, every person needs to figure out what the best way for them is to fight their nisayon - in ANY aveirah. We can't say that just because so-and-so beat his nisayon by using teshuva method "x," I'll do the same thing. Because I'm not him, and my nisyonos are different from his.

For us, in our situation, the tools that we're using are necessary to OUR teshuva. Which may take many steps, and might take time. But it's teshuva, our personal teshuva, our personal avodah.

I think?

right on, silent guy.

you must be the strong, silent type....

you can take the ? off of the last line. What you think is not only true for you, it's true period. Perfect observation.

have a great nite, and an even BETTER day tomorrow (or is that today...?)

imtrying25 wrote on 09 Dec 2009 22:23:


Yeah, and I used all CAPS to copy that Reb B. look of authority, too.

So i'm not supposed to view this concept in terms of teshuva, and when i fall c"v - it's not the aveirah im concerned with, it's my 'failure to keep to the system'  sort of like a personal lack of achievement... i don't know how to handle that. ???

It's not a system.

You're trying to fix yourself!

One day at a time.

Each day you're clean is great.

If your clean but you're not lusting any less, then you should worry.  YOu're missing something.

If you keep falling, but your falls get less frequent, and you use each fall to discover some OTHER blind spot you overlooked before, and you generally don't make the same stupid mistake twice (just a lot of different stupid mistakes) and overall you're lusting less, and focusing more on just plain LIVING, then you're on the right track.

BTW, how are you doing, anyways?

--Eye.

Thanks, Reb Steve! And no, I'm not really much of the strong, silent type  :D It's just that after reading a lot of Michtav M'Eliyahu, I've picked up a bit of his attitude. Which is, that the battles we fight in this wordl ARE truly dramatic. Far more dramatic than any movie we see or book we read. SO, my name has that battle thing to it, and also the fact that this is a struggle that goes on that no one really sees, no one knows, no one can understand or offer support. Except for you you guys here.

Reb Steve, and anyone else - I'm still new to all this, and kinda forming my own ideas and understanding - so please, if you disagree with my thoughts, PLEASE let me know, so I can talk it over with you and understand more!?

Reb Kollel guy - my understanding is like this: This is a sickness. Yes, it's a sickness that involves an aveirah, but right now, you're limited in what you can do about that, until you treat the sickness. So your goal (as far as your avodas hashem goes) HAS to be to focus on dealing with the addiction, and your growth in terms of avodas hashem MUST be measured in terms of how well you're dealing with the addiction, not how often you've done the actual aveirah. And the reasoning is simple - which way will get you better faster, and more effectively, and get you away from this aveirah for good?

Another way of looking at it would be to say that you have a disease which forces you to do certain aveiros. Imagine a guy that literally had no control over his hands, and with no conscious will at all, his hands would do this aveirah, and cause him to be mz"l...obviously, we want to stop this behavior as quickly as possible (even an ones is still involved in the aveirah, and that's never a good thing), but we look at it through a medical perspective. And if our efforts fail the first time, and it happens again - does he feel like he's done an aveirah? Or does he feel somewhat sad that this aveirah was done, but realize that he just needs to try another way of treating his sickness more effectively?

Kollel Guy wrote on 10 Dec 2009 13:20:


Kollel Guy,

These are the rules of the game: don't (ever) beat yourself up!

Another day, another stride. If you fall; pick yourself up, dust off, and keep on walking.

That's how we play! Simple! (But not easy.)

You can't drive your car when your attention is stuck on looking in your rearview mirror.  Get your focus on the road in front of you!

2B