laagvokeles wrote on 13 Apr 2011 21:58:


Um.  Seriously?  You argue (or play Devil's Advocate) against something you do not even know?

At any rate, 12-steps is for addiction.  Not for general issurim.  You don't take 12-steps for not showing up to Shul one week.  Bad habits and addictions are different.

My sexual addiction:
-Ruined my job
-Ruined my marriage
-Ruined my reputation
-Lots of other stuff

...I didn't care about those as much as I kept wanting more!  I just had to hide it better in future!

That is addiction.

If the most effective cure for that is to eat Chazer, I am sure Rabbonim would find me a heter.  Hold hands with a "bunch of scum and goim"?  A fortiori (Kal V'Chomer).

That's not to say 12-steps are the only way to address masturbation (although it is extremely effective, I understand).  Nor is it to say it cannot be applied to other (non addiction-related) areas of one's life.

im not talking about seek ppl יקרא שמו בישראל addicted.
im talking about ppl who got exposed to porn for many years, and they are roten(פארדארבען,רקןב) on the inside, they are very big balei aveiro, and its just hard to get disconected.

addicts or whatever they are called, i have no clue how to deal with them, and i dont say any opinion.

i only say that במושכל ראשון when u talk to someboddy who masturbates, you gotta think hes a baal aveiro (not a addict), and if so just tell him שובה עד ד' אלוקך (has 12 letters).....
but no 12 steps needed.

how do u do tshuva? how do u make sure u dont do it again ככלב השב לקיאו?
sit and learn go speack to a rabbi.
and if this guy is not so "yiddish" he should do 12 steps and finish.

He's not talking about addicts, he's talking about people who are baalei aveira who can't stop (or at least have been unable to stop till now even though they've tried).

I'm glad you cleared that up.

the broch is im not so sure what a addict is…

there is the extreme one like the jester said when he looses life cause of porn, so probably he is….
ועדיין צ"ב cause we see many times ppl loose their wife for an other woman they also loose the children cause of this woman, and there is no addiction there just plain taava (oh for the romantic ones ill say that its love…. Sure….) and still he looses wife children respect etc

so Im not sure this is a good סימן  what the jester said, but the jester could be right too…. Im just saing that im not clear in this….

in other words im not so sure what i am (if addict or not), cause could be i am.... i just didnt loose my wife cause i hide it very very good.... but i would loose her...

or maybe im not a addict...

הורינו ד' דרכך: if i am  a addict give me what addicts need.. and if i am a baal aveiro show me how to do tshuva

u know, this has been a really nutty thread, i just didnt get it

but im finishing the big book today, and i am willing to answer any point in that book which is not only anti torah but is torah itself-there may be two or three sentences that are not so gleich, but the steps themselves?
i accept the challenge.
u see me3, these convo's with ppl who arent living the 12 step program, its prob. a waste of time, bec. unless they taste it they cannot possibly understand what it is.

I am going to in-person SA meetings in the Cleveland area. I have the following minor objections:

1. I had to get a sponsor who is not a Torah Jew. I am the only frum person there. He speaks to me about what G-d wants me and it is creepy. There are enough of us who need this that we don't need goyim there.

2. This is not a disease. This is like Hashem taking choice away from Paro. In twelve-step they talk about "figuring out G-d's will for us". We know what it is: the Torah. It's the same for all of us.

3. I believe that the proper Torah approach ought to include a time-limited neder to "do teshuva as soon as possible after lusting," (including the wife.) I have personal experience and good luck with that. Now I am struggling to recover, but the neder got me sober. I was sober for five years, and today sobriety is not a problem, resentment and rage are.

4. People need to accept that this is a sin. This is not so clear in 12-step.

I am still going to 12-step meetings because the group of other people like myself enables me to get out of myself and discover my triggers etc. but I wish we had a program more optimized to Torah Jews.

nederman wrote on 06 May 2011 19:43:


if u feel that u have no bechira cause u are like paro (2), how come u think that ppl have to accept it is a sin (4) ? ( cause if there is no bechira there is no sin)

besides i think (thats what i understood from ppls posts in here) that 12 steps program includes that u are out of the picture completly, u have to accept that there is nothing u can do about it (like u said in number 2) so to go to 12 steps program and to think u have a sin it would be a contradiction, right?

Sanhedrin 94,a "a disgrace to the yidden that (davka)yisro (a oved avoda zara) said 'boruch' to Hashem before the yidden did".. Zohar- the Torah couldn't be given to the yidden until yisro came and realized how great Hashem is. It's the same with us. The WHOLE BIG WORLD out there is FULL of Hashem.. But us ONLY in the 'world of Torah' culture will never see it. Now with all these (seemingly) 'non-Torah' experiences we finally receive our own 'personal' Torah as we were originally supposed to.

nederman wrote on 06 May 2011 19:43:


The GYE anonymous Duvid-Chaim 12-step phone conferences are starting up tomorrow (Mon, May 16).  Call in.

--Eye.