There has been alot of people complaining about why GYE encourages the 12 steps as it does not have a Jewish author or source.  While my opinion on the matter is well known, I wish to know this "Torah" approach so I can try it out.  The 12 step method is pretty well documented, but I can't seem to find a systematic Torah approach carefully set up as a program.

Now if your idea of the Torah approach is to open up a Mesillas Yesharim or Chovas Halevavos, start from the beginning and work through it, then this thread will be meaningless to you.

But for those who want to encourge a Torah program designed directly for an addict to work through, this is your place to put it out for all of our benefit.


Now I'm sure all the people who are bashing the 12 steps have a viable alternative, because it would be silly to bash a program if you have nothing to offer in its place.

So please enlighten us!

I personally never "knocked" the 12 steps.

An alternate system that worked for me and others was sent out (as a link) by R' Guard as part of the chizul email of Feb. 24 (I think it was number 965).
I will try to post the link when I get to a desktop computer.

Please take a look and bomb away. I am looking for feedback. "Negative" feedback would also be great.

OK, here is the link:

www.guardureyes.com/GUE/PDFs/ebooks/Reah%20Chaim.pdf

Thinking about it quickly, I think when I revise this guide (after all the feedback I will get here), I should emphasize more the importance of support. Support is incredibly helpful and I did not give it its due in my guide.

.....many non-12 Steppers admit to having gleaned some ideas from the 12 Step Program too. (ESPECIALLY those who have been successful......)

-:- It is easier when it is done as part of a group. Ein Hatorah nikneis ella b'chaburah.

-:- It is not enough to just READ the program books. Knowing all about the program DOES NOT equal WORKING the program!    It is not enough to read/learn what the Torah's approach. It needs to be WORKED on & internalized. We have been reading & [externally] going the motions of the Torah Approach for years, but have EVER tried WORKING it? With the seriousness that the 12 Step Program adherents follow the teachings of Bill W. & Eddie T. It is no wonder that it had no effect on us. It never penetrated! As we read shmutz stories, looked at unclean images, or otherwise fantasied we did get more 'into it', our heartbeat might have gotten a bit quicker, our palms a bit sweaty, it had physical effects. Ein hatorah niknei ella bmi shemeimis atzmo aleiha!

-:- We need to internalize that Hashem is with us ALL the time. That he is directing EVERYTHING around us. That Hashem is the one who placed us in THIS nisayon at THIS moment in time.
He is not just in the world around us; we need to bring Him inside us! Al ki ein Elokai b'kirbi metza'anu haraos ha'eileh!

-:- Sponsors. We need to learn how to accept from our Moreh Derech, whether we agree with him or not. He is Hashem's mouthpiece in telling us how to go about our lives. Just as there is NO area in which Hashem doesn't have an opinion, so too ought there be no detail in which we think that there is no room for input by our Moreh Derech.      Rivkah Imeinu was perplexed. She went to ask Hashem. She went to inquire what is Hashem's take on the matter. Where did she go to? To Beis Midrasho shel Sheim. (Note: Rashi does NOT say that she asked Sheim himself. She went to his Bais Medrash. She was content to ask one of his pupils too! Any Torah Rav can be Hashem's conduit. Not only the greatest 'Gedolim' have Daas Torah!)Kupat Ha'ir will need MANY more pics now!

-:- Fellow members. Having someone to reach out to during week moment is essential. Al taamin b'atzmacha. We can NEVER be confident that we will be able to withstand the Yetzer Horah's overtures!

-:- "Keep coming back". We never graduate. We are never finished. We must constantly review & renew commitment. We cannot afford to be stagnant. By gathering here on GYE & in live chaburos or groups to discuss/share/review/renew/strengthen ourselves we can get a bit of the power to tide us over until the next time we regroup. Daled devarim tzarichin chizuk. Rashi adds: b'chol kocho. Tamid!



Who has tried THIS approach and found it not to be effective?

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 10 Apr 2011 20:30:


I'm not sure what you meant in this last post.  Were you quoting the Steps in the Torah approach that are also found in the 12 steps? Because most of what you said were part of steps in the 12 steps? Or were you delineating the Torah approach in general?

Man I thought I would be overwhelmed with people wanting to share with us their ideas of the Torah approach.  Where are all my anti-12 steppers?

Reb O? You around?
Laag? I see that you are around anything to tell us?

Oh dear, anybody here get the Chizuk emails?

Is Me3 referring to the part where it states that there are elements of the 12 Steps which are NOT compatible with Judaism?

I am trying to do the 12 Steps and live with emunah, bitachon, humility, cheshbon hanefesh, tefilla and making amends to those that I have hurt.

For the Torah approach see this board:www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?board=15.0 It is packed with a velt of chizuk and aitzos and should not be missed by anyone on this Forum.

Hatzlocho to everyone in finding the right approach for them and using it to serve Hashem.

me3, sweetheart,

the 12 steps is torah, in the simplest form of ein hamedrash haikar elah hamaaseh. that is why it works for over 2milllion of the lowest scum in the world. it is also incorporated all day in your life.
sefarim and nice vorts lose that limaaseh thing that makes our program work, whatever it may be.

i went to a chinuch conference here recently. 3 speekers, one was our very own r feldman.

one speaker answered to every thing torah torah torah is greste schoirah
im sure it helped thousands in chinuch with that

the next guy gives a complicated vort about a medrash and kadshim, and ties it into chinuch, using obscure yeshivish words that were not precise enough to help anybody

r feldman gets up, no vorts, just spews advice for an hour, based on experience, about chinuch-he was the only helpful speaker

thats what the 12 steps are like to me

the 12 steps will make me a normal human
to be a jew i need to learn the medrash of the torah also, so that i can humanly observe it

btw i have juicy material materiel on the reb o topic. additionally, during that debate, s/o sent me reb o's mekor. i was on bus back from tel aviv and i wrote a massive expose tearing it apart, will post it at right time

me3, what was pt of this thread? whats your goal?
also, i am taking 12 steps because they work for everybody, even black rapist drunkards
torah doesnt help ppl like me most of the time so why bother ONLY using that/ just do 12 steps, which is therapy, AND be a jew supplementing therapy from torah

not good for my blood pressure, have a good day, and good to see you again

Tzaddik

The point of this thread was simple. I believe after arguing repeatedly with people how the 12 steps is not anti-Torah, that there really is no argument.

Most people who make that argument are making a knee jerk reaction to the concept without having a clue what the 12 steps say.  All they see is "Non Jewish method without haskomas printed in front, must be anti-Torah."

Second it is easy to say that something else isn't good but when asked to propose your "better" solution is where people suddenly need to think for themselves.

Third, without a doubt the alternate Torah solution that will be offered will be a variation of the methods already brought in the 12 steps, so it allows me to demonstrate that they agree the 12 steps are Torah.

Fourth, if by some chance they bring a method sourced in Torah that is not included in the 12 steps, I certainly would like to know about it, wouldn't I?

what i reflect the most on my own from your thread is the observation that these ppl critisize the 12 steps without at all knowing what it is

i went for cbt, did gye (500 posts!), hooked up with mekubalim mind readers, and now the 12 steps are helping me in a way all that stuff lacked
thank u hashem for letting me start these steps just 2 weeks ago

Me3 wrote on 13 Apr 2011 13:32:

The 12-steps DOES HAVE haskomos, and from very well-known and widely accepted Rabbonom.

Your brain surgeon, by the way, doesn't have any haskomos on his front door or in his office, or anywhere m'forish in the shulchan aruch or sifrei mussar, chassidus, or kaballah (okay, maybe in sifrei kaballah.  It's m'rumes in Tikunei Zohar Parshas Shlach perek 167).  But if you need that brain surgeon, any Rav you ask will tell you to go to him.

--Eye.

Eye

I gues it's ironic but before anybody is willing to consider the 12 steps they have to be desperate, they need to have realized that "They are powerless over lust and that their lives have become unmanageable."

And then this whole discussion is moot.

sorry but i just saw now this thread...
any way i didnt read the 12 steps but i trust u ppl that it dosnt contradict the toiro so no problem at all.

still....., if this taava that we have is not a sickness (חולי) called adiction, only a aveiro as all the rest (i know it can ruin our life, but im talking about the aviero) then i dont know why to be קובע to use the 12 steps דווקא, ill explain:

per example a BT is used to watch tv on shabes, he did it for 20 years, its very hard to stop, or cigares he smoked also in shabes for 30 years its very hard to stop, dos he need 12 steps? is there in our gigantic tora a special aproach how to win hes y"h?
No there isnt, every body speacks to a diffrent rabbi and reads diffrent books with diffrents aproach and diffrent ideas and chizuk.

so why should mas""""  be diffrent? why should some one who is frum not learn what he feels conected to? be cause it till now didnt help?
                                    why didnt it help?
well in case that our individual is not mentally eal (חולה) called adiction etc, im sure that it didnt help because the y"h is tremendous big, and you are not working hard enough.

there is also very modren inteligent sofisticated ppl that come in into gye that the all idea of concentrating on sifrei musar vachasidut and see what they say how to resolve this problem, is very far from those ppl, so ok for them lets give something "medical"... 12 steps...

בקיצור
even if the 12 steps are also על פי תורה i still dont know why should i not do it the way i want like all the rest of the things in toire that every boddy learns במקום שלבו חפץ

so someone is gonna tell me you fool! if the 12 steps are also על פי תורה and also specialist say that it helps why dont you just do this specific method??!!
well one of the answers is gonna be, because part of the 12 steps is to talk to to many ppl and i dont like it

i would only speack to a very close friend but not to strangers etc
(this also contradicts the toiro cause we say אשרי נשוי פשע כסוי חטאה, and what the sefarim say to speack to someboddy is only to one person AND A REAL FRIEND not to a bunch of scum and goim, or even to jews if they are not a real friend, just ppl u meet over there in sa)