silentbattle wrote on 19 Dec 2010 12:27:


you are right SB.

i would like to say, if we base our opinions, thoughts and advice on our own rationalizations and logic, then heaven help us all.
i know this is a very strong statement to make, but doing so is being kofer.

all the problems in the world nowadays, the immorality, the gay movement, the liberalism, gross inequities...you know how all this started? people started rationalizing and coming up with things logically from their minds. their minds and not from the Torah.

i sincerely hope and believe one does not just say things, advise, and make statements based on things that are 'obvious' and 'clear to everyone and him' or 'scientifically proven' but rather are sourced very much in the Torah, the instruction manual of Ribono Shel Olom, or at the very least discussed before hand with rabannim and talmidei chachamim.
otherwise this is very dangerous

I'm not sure I have much to add to this debate, except one little thought came to mind that I figured should just maybe be tossed onto the fire of debate.

You see, the Y'H didn't invent se*uality or even fine-tune it. To think that he has the power to do any such thing is k'firus -- only Hashem can make something from nothing. Judaism 101. So we have to assume that se*ual forces come from Hashem. The y'h's permission to use them is somehow part of The Plan.

We can only guess at the reasons why -- to promote preservation of the species; to make a three-threaded rope of man-woman-Hashem for making a family (Koheleth, no?); to give us a treat after a rough day in the fields; who knows? Ours is not to reason why Hashem does things. Judaism 201. Our is simply to come to enjoy it.

That's my "philosophical" reason for rejecting the notion that we can "beat se*uality at its own game." It won't work because Hashem's works can't be destroyed. Only harnassed for good. And if we have a complaint on the nature of se*ual temptation in this generation (for ourselves as individuals)... we have to work on our complaint but not try to destroy the creation.

And of course, at the end of days we know the Y'H will be happy that we found our way to ignore "him" and to follow "Him" instead. Ultimately the y'h is an Eved Hashem, too. Judaism 501.

And PS: I've got a long past. I "know from" nudist camps. Perhaps folks lose their se*ual interest. BUT they then lose ALL se*ual interest, which means normal "family life" is out the window, too. That's surely not part of the plan, either.

Just one bozo's thoughts....

Instead of imagining in the perfect utopian society the girls with their blanks how about thinking about the men with their blank. How about the wrinkled old ladied. What about the fat ones. Does it still apeal to you. I can continue. Have you ever been on a nde beach? It isnt very triggiring. Most people are very ugly without clothes.

- Yeah, that's what everybody tells me, too! :o :

Uh-oh...that was supposed to be a joke of some kind. Well....

OK. Technically it is not based on Torah, yet it is clearly not apikorsus, cuz it is not anything like 'philosophy'. All I really mean by "nuts" is this:

It doesn't really work.

That's all. For me (and for anyone I know) life just stinks when I think that way.

I keep acting out my lust, my relationships are fake and no fun at all, my avodah is a stupid roller coaster where any churban is tied to some big "deveikus" so I rectify with some nachas ruach for Him....that is not living. It looks like living, but it is something else. Me and my lifestyle are treifah beheimos for two resons:

My chances of living out the year intact are not very good, and -
My limbs are all there but they are uneven. I become a briyash meshuneh. Two lives rolled into one yid.

That's pretty nutty.

As far as I am concerned, recovery has little to do with Torah, and more to do with Derech Eretz. Where my recovery reaches to is where my Torah begins. It's kodmah laTorah. It's part of zai a mentch. And that's what gets our egos 'all in a bunch': It's beneath us to be just trying to be mentchen! No, no, no. We insist that we are fighting for madreigos!

"Oy laburs'ki", right? (it's a gemorah somewhere - any talmidei chachomim here?) Nu, but someone's got to do it...

I say 'oy labus'ki', sure - but the real 'oy' goes for the poor guy who is given burs'ki's work to do, and refuses to do it! That's us, for sure.

Recovery is kindergarten. But for people like me, who only passed kindergarten because we got too old to stay in it - don't worry! There is still recovery 20-30-40+ years later! No wonder there is no test or GPA # needed to 'graduate' from kindergarten!

To address the initial question of this thread:

It would be a mistake to believe that: 'Since pornography exists, we must battle it'.
NO!!! It's quiet the opposite: 'Since we must battle, Pornography had to be created!!!!!

The obsticles we face were put there deliberatly so that we can grapple with them and accomplish our goal in life..

Your proposal of desensitizing ourselves is like proposing that two opposing football teams should strike an agreement to ceasfire and thus avoid the 'fight' and then everyone can go home without having to fight for the touchdowns... I mean why 'fight' if a ceasefire can eliminate the need of both teams to have to compete for touchdowns?

It would be silly sincethe reason the games were set up in the first place is in order to be able to compete!!

g-d bless u, tried. love the cigar

Tried, that makes the most sense, and not just in regard to my initial post.  My yetzer hara has been running wild lately.  Been really down about it today.  It seems to know that I cant fall for simple temptation, rather it goes nuts (or better makes me) with similar philsophical and belief based arguments.  And I feed it!
Also to Dov: For you it seems, as with many here, that recovery and Torah/ruchnias are in some manifest two seperate entities.  Mine is not so much.  As I have stated before, I am not an addict in the sense that it seems others here are.  Not to belittle them at all, I just never took anything that far.  I would imagine that I was more active than some, but not others that in secular circles are considered quite normal.  However, I view the addiction recovery model as very beneficial to everyone, be it raging heroine addict or sober from birth individual.  I would place myself in the middle, with the definite potential for worse.  I also notice that my lust desire and spiritual holding are VERY intertwined.  If I am feeling spirituallly strong and have clarity of mind I have absolutely no issue refraining from lust.  However, if I begin to slip in either, the other follows.  Lust seems to be my yetzer haras favorite vice, probably because in the past lusst was something more than it is now for me.  I'm not trying to deny anything, rather clarify why a crises of faith puts me at risk enough to cry for help, and why a logical response is so crucial.  hope this is clear, and thank you all for the help!

Look around here. The people who come on, ranting and raving about how they have to do things the torah way, and insist on figuring out how the 12 steps fit into a torah hashkafa before they'll touch it...all too often, a year later, they're still doing the same thing. If they're still here.

Which leads me to believe that it's probably not their yetzer tov who's bringing up this intense connection to torah.

As for being an addict, the question is, as always - if you're not addicted, why don't you stop?

I suggest you check out the DSM-IV's criteria for substance abuse and dependence, and see how many could apply to you. I know that I was unpleasantly surprised.

silentbattle wrote on 22 Dec 2010 07:08:


Hey R Silent, How's it going?

p.s. When you consider it the "yetzer horah" isn't that also connecting it to Torah??

I think there can be many reasons why people drop out. I suspect that in some cases it's because they are encouraged to do more than they can handle and simply can't sustain it without live in person peer support (e.g. meetings)....

to clarify, I havent willingly done anything (2 night time) in 4 months.  I'm just struggling with major cognitive dissonance right now.  It happened to coincide with a philisophical quandry about an old friends pritzus picture.  I struggle with this less because I think I'm wrong, but I dont like thinking others are blatently "wrong".  But if they may be right, coudnt that mean I am wrong, etc etc.
"one doesnt do an avera unless they are overcome by a ruach shtus" DSM says something along same lines, in that addicts will act despite knowing they are hurting themselves (I dont remember DSM criteria, but I have seen it.  I dont tend to treat DSM as entirely authoritative, nor does a psychiatrist I see.)  It's all quite intertwined. I cant stop because I have illogical thought patterns and a strong sexual desire developed through years of conditioning and strong emotional ties to a ex that I never entirely worked through.  However, when my emuna/bitachon/cognitive process are more in check (all go VERY hand in hand) I have no issue staying clean.  When they go a bit haywire, then I have some issues...I again want to reitterate that some legitimately have an addiction, I just dont really fall under that label as clearly.

when a person is experiencing cognitive dissonance, eventually they will give in to one side or another just to aleviate their distress. at least that's what i learn in ADMS2400 organizational behaviour.
make sure u choose the right side, struggler, k?

The SA Whitebook says something like this, basically--We don't claim to be experts on addiction but it's a very helpful way to understand our lusting.

So, whether we technically, officially, clinically, or legally are addicts, it really doesn't matter.  But, understanding our lust in this way is very helpful for anyone interested in breaking free of lust.

--Eye.

First of all, my apologies if my last post was a little harsh. I have a tremendous amount of respect and love for you.

Tried-123 wrote on 22 Dec 2010 09:19:


Hi there, Trying (Yep, i'm still calling you that)!

It's certainly connected to torah. And a major reason why I don't want to live that lifestyle, with those habits, is because I want to live a life of torah.

But when I want to get free, get sober, then I need to find the most effective cure for it. When a doctor tells me to do something, I don't spend hours checking if the cure fits with various gemaros. When I want to get free from this disease, I'll find what works.

Recovery definitely brings us closer to torah and ruchniyos and hashem. But when I want to figure out how to recover, then I go to the ones who have the most experience in dealing with sick people.

Philosophising about p*rn just gives us addicts another excuse to spend our time talking about it!

--Eye.

So, do you still 'need some logic' to beat this thing you call the Y"H, or have you determined that something else is needed?