I havent been here in a long while because I've been clean B"H!  And then: old friend (I actually dont talk to them) has a quite provacative pic on facebook (almost all of my friends are modest/not ready  to delete account).  So B"H I was able to avoid clicking to view it, but my Y"H has other means.  It started going through a philisophical argument similar to that of radical gender neutrality proponents where if there was no standard of modesty and people were open there would be less of a stigma and inappropriate response to said immodesty.  I am aware that the Torah is against this, I am aware that Hashem says one thing that what we do, I am aware that this in a way discredits the spiritual nature of man.  I also am aware that this is my Y"H and I am not acting on this urge.  I would however, like to hear anyone who does not have a Nietche-ish Y"H debating with them's logical refutation to this not-so logical idea.  I dont think this is an emergancy, but I do think that it would be greatly appreciated! 

well dude all very well and nice to sya, i get the logic and yes being constantly exposed does reduce sensitivity to  some extent...but then look at the sexomaniac college students, who have access to porn and real-life naked girls all day and somehow this doesn't make them lose the drive, they still react to visuals.
perhaps not as strongly as someone whos never seen...
but exposing ourselves to these images wont make ourselves unreactive.

i mean, in shtetle they not have these images so the nisayon was easier. the VERY THING that makes this nisayon harder these days is the fact that we are overstimulated with pritzus everywehre, builboards, women on subways etc.

ur YH's clever but he ain't clever enough.

thanks.  The lovely "only organ that is hungrier the more you feed it".  I cant believe I didnt just remember that!
but yeah, my Y"H does that a lot.  Sort of says "yeah that nice, can you back it up logically?"  mostly to fences designed to keep us from falling. 

STARVE THE BEAST - that's my tshirt yo  8)

what's yours?

(briut started this i think...)

strugglingandstrivngBT wrote on 14 Dec 2010 18:03:

Wait a second!  Is that just a fancy way to say "Nudist colonies"?

I think, as a general rule, the evil contained within a certain matter is directly proportionate to the length of the euphamisim (or rationale) that must be construed in order not to mention that matter directly.

How's that?

Eye, that is actually exactly what I was thinking, but I did not want to say it. 
and I actually have thought of shirt, though its somewhat satire,
a picture of a real chasidish looking guy with tallis and teffillin (or streimel) that says, "I'm not just in it for the fashion, but it doesnt hurt".

strugglingandstrivngBT wrote on 14 Dec 2010 23:35:
;D ;D ;D

I really agree with what you guys all wrote on feeding-it->begetting hunger. So long as one's sex-drive is intact - there will be lust for something beyond whatever your 'lust-edge' is. If the average 'non tznius' profile pic were commonplace enough to no longer be provocative/triggering - that could only be because we're constantly looking at similar things - and if this is the case, surely there will be something else just racy enough to be triggering - and then the cycle repeats itself (especially with us addicts). With that said, I think you probably already realize this - and I'm stating the obvious.

Two other points:

- When Avraham Avinu went through the test of the Akeida, his struggle was not only emotional - but also philosophical. The Yetzer Hora brought a ton of intellectual challenges (along the lines of: are you really sure that Hashem wants you to do this... perhaps the real test is for you NOT to do it since this is against everything that you've done so far!!! Etcetera). His questions were rational and made sense. Avrahams victory was not in overcoming these questions and finding answers for them (although I'm sure he was capable of it) - instead it was that he 'turned off his logic' and just did what Hashem told him to with zerizus. And it's very significant that this was Avraham doing this - the man that 'rediscovered' the ONE Hashem through deep analysis and reasoning. The lesson is that while it is important to get to where we are by thinking/reasoning/questioning - this is when we are working on understanding the world & reaching the next level. However, when one already knows what he needs to do (& especially in the midst of a nisayon) - it is not the time for internal debate & reasoning! It's time to just love Hashem (& thereby inherently trust Him) - and throw away whatever logical reasoning the Yetzer Hora is selling at the moment. Perhaps at a later time, one can return and resolve/delve into them (as we are here) - but NOT at the time of the nisayon! (I am by NO means saying that I'm currently living up to this myself. In practice it's very hard - and those 'logical' arguments make so much sense when I'm in a spirit of tipshus.... just saying that this is what we aught to be doing)


- on a purely philosophical (i.e. hashkofik) level - and I really hope the below is not triggering to anyone - I do think that if we were TRULY spiritual, then things like clothing would not necessarily be required & all of the things that we're struggling with here (@ GYE) would be completely irrelevant. However - that TRULY spiritual world is the world of Gan Eden before the Chet Etz HaDaas. Unlike the christian concept of original sin, we do not subscribe to the idea that a person is inherently evil & tainted - however it is still a legitimate statement that we all now have an inherent drive for self-destruction that is tied to our self-awereness (in jewish terms: Yeishus/Kelipos/etc, in psych terms Ego/Id/Self-Destructive Urge/Etc, etc etc). When I hear all the feel-good, liberal/progressive rationalization for where western society is heading (i.e nowhere good!) - I don't think that what's being claimed is completely without merit. Rather, I think it is almost always completely misguided because it ignores the fact that people are corruptible & can at times be self-destructive. A great analogy can be made to Communism/Socialism - the idea of giving each man according to his need, and taking from each man according to his ability - is a very nice noble idea (even if you don't agree with it, it has merit) - but it ignores the reality that people can be lazy, corruptible, and need tangible rewards - in the current world.
Perhaps when Moshiach comes, much of this will change - including us returning to the 'natural' state that we had in Gan Eden & not needing external modesty - and perhaps not. (I suspect not, or certainly not right away - but am certainly not anywhere close to having a real opinion on it) Anyways, sorry to have written something so long winded - may we merit to be there when Moshiach comes and see how it practically happens.

amen

So, aside from the idea that if you poke your eyes out, you won't feel as much lust when exposed to dirty pictures...?

That's right - I'm comparing your y"h's proposal to severely damaging yourself, because that's exactly what you'd be doing. You'd be damaging yourself right now, and you'd be damaging yourself even more in the future. Once you lose sensitivity, it's not easy to gain it back. Furthermore, once you pump your body full of drugs, it's not easy to get clean and healthy again. What you're advocating isn't healthy, especially knowing that you have a problem with Lust.

Try this comparison: "I'm addicted to heroine. Now, everyone knows that when you use heroine consistently, you stop reacting to it, you stop getting as much of a high (or any high, in fact), so I have a great idea - I'm going to take lots of heroine, all the time, so that it won't tempt me anymore!"

I can think of at least 3 reasons why 9at least in my example) that's not just a crazy idea, it's stupid, too. I'll leave it to you to post explanations.

strugglingandstrivngBT wrote on 14 Dec 2010 18:03:


The entire cheshbon is just nuts.

No offense, really.

- Dov

Thank you for all the responses.  Hashem has helped me stay strong, though my YH has gone on to bigger issues of philosophy.  Rebbe Nachman said that people should avoid all philosophy not rooted in Torah.  I sort of wish I could do this, though I think a balance is important, though thats somewhat irreleveant.
I would like to ask Dov to elaborate on what makes it "nuts".  I would also like to say that Naftali, amen! and that your points are very much what I was refering to.  Shavua tov!  may we all merit a week of sobriety and ruchniyas, and kedusha! 

i think maybe what makes it nuts is exactly what u said - it's not rooted in Torah.

theres a concept of Tznuis in the Torah, and lack of it sources immorality.

no matter what another philosophy might bring to the table it is irrelevent in the face of the Emes which is our Torah.
There is nothing truer then the Torah, something proved time and time again. so if It says this, no matter how logical another argument might seem, it is not correct and fault can be found in it.

d_teddybear wrote on 19 Dec 2010 04:56:


L'aniyas da'ati, I don't think so - Reb Dov doesn't usually work like that. I think he means that it's nuts simply because seen from the outside, it's clearly stinking thinking - the rationalizations of an addict wanting to fuel his Lust.

Need to beat my philosophical Yh
Dont bother not worth your time! If you talk to him you already lost. I learned this from asara bteves . If you let the seige start you already lost
Hatzlacha