Today is  the first anniversary of my joining this site. It truely has been been of the most dramatic years of my life. I have changed in how I look at this struggle, how I look at myself and how I act. I now know that I am not a monster or a terrible person rather I am a normal healthy good Jew who got caught in something I did not know how to deal with. Maybe if I would have had the proper hadrach I would not be here but there is another way to look at this. There is a concept in Chasidus that Hashem, in His Infinite Wisdom, causes all sins to happen and we, those who sinned unwillingly so to speak (this idea is very kabbalistic and Rav Desler warns about not letting Kabbalistic teachings weaken our fear of sin), are supposed to use them as a vehcile (lav davka a truck) to better ourselves. When we use them as a sourse of motivation to improve ourselves, in that area and in general, we have brought out the good in the sin and the Divine Intention in causing us to sin is revealed . Now that sin is a source of merit for us, for it was an inpitus in our growth, and we are a better person. (Bards correct me if I am wrong, I am not the resident expert on Chasidus).

With this thought in mind I can say I have started to reveal the Divine Intention in my years of sinning. They are the groundwork for me to impove as a person and really learn about and live a life of kedusha. I have also had the chance to have a very minor part in spreading the message of the site that is about the of hope, redemption and meaning that is possible. It is possible that my pain and sins where intended to enable me to help other avoid this path and make the world a holier place. 

The questions I ask myself today is how far have I removed myself from sinning by applying what I have learnt about both myself and this struggle and after having focused on that how much meaning have a I  realized in my past sins?


Thank you Guard and all the other who have helped me till here and will help in the future.( I would be happier if the forum had more traffic this time of year. )

Holy Yid wrote on 22 Jul 2010 08:09:


Can you please include a source for this idea (not Rabbi Arush, he is not proper mesorah). I am not that knowledgeable, but the little knowledge I have, taught me otherwise.  This idea you quote from the chassidim is against the Rambam. Are these chassidim aware of this? Maybe they say that the Rambam did not have the mesora.  But, the Rambam was very adamant.  Please, inform me. 

The Rambam even goes on to ask how we could act against the will of Hashem.  He explains that the will of Hashem is for us to choose.

Also, during tisha b'av we read the famous megillas eicha, where Yirmiyahu speaks his experience.  If you look in chapter 3, it is only at the point that Yirmiyahu recognizes that all evil comes from man NOT G-D, was yirmuyahu able to rise above his depression. So, I am not quite sure what to do with your words. 

As far as Rabbi Dessler, I found the opposite to be true from his words. It has been a while since I read this stuff, but I vaguely recall him speaking about how a few great people were sort of forced into it.  The implication being that most people it is  not that way. 

But...What do I know???  I am just a dumb pervert.    :'(

I write from memory. This idea is originaly from the Mai Hasheiloach, the Ishbitzer Rebbe. It is quoted in Pri Tzadik in sefer Devorim.

It is known the our actions are both the product of our choice due to our free will and the product of G-d pre-odaining everything we do. These two ideas seem to contradict each other, in fact Rambam writes that it is not possilbe for the human mind to reconcile them.

It is also known (see Ramban introduction to his commentary on Chumash) that everything which was created by G-d, both the spiritual and pysical, can be understood on 50 differant levels of depth, with each level new depth of understanding in the existance. The human mind can only grasp the first 49 levels and the 50th is only understood by G-d Himself.

The Arizal teaches that in the 50th level of understanding free will and Divine Pre-Ordination reconciled. Through Teshuva a person can remove his part of the sin and reach a level where the only thing that remains is G-d pre-ordaning the sin. But to do this a person must transend the shollowness of this world and connect to G-d in the deepest way possible so the person connects with G-d on the 50th level of wisdom. I do not recall the specifics of how one reaches the 50th level through Teshuva.

The piece from Rav Desler I had in mind is in Vol IV p 11. The thought you mention (I believe it is in Vol II) does not contradict this as a few holy people have the ability through their actions, to impact  the point all the souls connect and thereby influene, in a positive manner, the spiritual core of Israel and thereby cause a positive change in the whole nation.

Sorry if I am way in over my head. 

One more thought. You are not " just a dumb pervert". You are a Jew wanting and working to improve yourself. The reward is according to the pain and  a Jew like you who feels they are so low and still is working to change is very specail to G-d.

Thank you Holy Yid for taking my words seriously and taking the time to respond.  Sorry for being such a nudge.  Well at least all this writing takes my mind of porn (for the time being).

I still have not found an explicit source to your claim from the soures you quoted.  . I will gently address what you quoted me and requote back to you what I understand from the Rambam.  I think you are mixing in your own interpretation in the sources.  Correct me if I am wrong.
 


I do not have a pri tzaddik with me in my house, but I do have a Mai Hasheiloach. And I found words that contradict what you said.  The most famous piece (and most controversial) is regarding zimir.  I will quote it word for word:

ולא יעלה ח"ו על הדעת לומר שזמרי היה נואף...אך יש סוד בדבר זה דהנה יש יו"ד נקודות בזנות: הנקודה הא'- מי שמקשט עצמו והולך במזיד לדבר עבירה היינו שהאדם בעצמו מושך היצה"ר 

B’kitzur, there are ten nekudos (levels) of zenus.  Level 1 is someone that pulls himself into it all by himself.  He goes on to explain that as each level progress, bechira is taken away from the person. Only someone that removes himself completely from lust is a candidate for level 10, where there is no bechira at all.  At this level, if a person sins in a lustful manner it is certainly ratzon hashem.  He then explains the machlokes between Moshe Rabeinu and Zimir. Zimri felt that this must be ratzon Hashem because he was perfected in the area of lust.  Zimri understood that kazbi must be his bas zugo.  Pinchos did not understand the depth of all this because he was but a “child”, and He leaves the reader with the impression that at the end of the day Zimri was right and pinchos was wrong. But Hashem loved pinchas anyway because he had good intentions. 

Anyway, as fascinating as that may be, it has nothing to do with our situation on this site. As he points out, only at “nekudah yud” does this idea of sinning bratzon hashem apply.  Otherwise, it was mankind himself who caused it, as he writes at the beginning. 

Incidentally, Rav tzadok in tzidkas hatzadik, number 43 makes a passing reference to this idea from his Rebbe.  And he is explicit as well that this only happens to few people.  And it is rare. No one is allowed going on saying this on their own.  Please look up the sources and let me know if you agree.

So, what I come out of these sources is certainly no proof to the claim you mentioned above, and to me it implies the opposite.




I am very well aware of this Rambam. This is found in chapter 5 of hilchos teshuvah and in greater depth in his introduction to pirkei avos (entitled shemoneh perakim), chapter eight. It is this same Rambam that I quoted you above.  I urge you to look it up inside. You will find that your assertions are strongly rejected by the Rambam.

Allow me to explain something very important and that confuses most people.  The Rambam deals with two basic philosophical questions in both of the sources I quoted to you above.  The first issue is Ratzon Hashem.  He asks how is it possible that we act against Ratzon Hashem? To that he does have an answer, and a very clear answer.  He explains, as I wrote above, that ratzon hashem is for us to decide.  And he elaborates how our actions are not preordained. He even goes on to explain that even choosing a shiduch is not preordained.  He refers to the belief that things are preordained as the belief of “idiots of the world” and “uneducated Jews”. 
The second question is if Hashem knows everything, surely he knows we will sin, and so how can it not be preordained. In other words, the question of knowledge (yediya) seems to contradict the idea of gezeira (preordained). To that he does not have an answer. And he explains why we can’t understand. 
In the quote above, you referred me to the Rambam’s second question, but misquoted it. The Rambam makes no mention of the fact that our actions are a combo. Quote the opposite.  And he rejects the notion of G-d pre-ordaining everything.  As stated above, he is quite adamant about his belief. 
So as far as the Rambam, we do not have a source for your original claim from the “Chassidim”. And we have a source against them. 
Please, if I am misunderstanding this Rambam, please clarify. I am still new to this game.  I will quote the Rambam in hilchos teshuvah at the end of the post for you to see for yourself.  But you must read the shemoneh perakim as well.



Rav Tzadok makes reference to this idea in siman 40. But again the issue reconciling yediya (knowledge) with bechira. Not ratzon and bechira. This doesn’t teach us that it was preordained.  Look up the language inside. I am not familiar with the works of arizal inside (though I am in awe of you that you read Arizal) but as far as Rav tzadok, he doesn’t address ratzon hashem. But again, I could be misinterpreting the sources. 
Either way, you agree that this source has little relevance to us, as very few of us reach this level.



I looked it up but did not find the chissideshe yesod you began with.




I am not sure how reconciled it.  Sorry, my head is filled with filth.  I guess I have no room for proper Torah understanding.

Thank you Holy Yid for taking the time to read this. If you can please respond with proper sources for this idea you began with, it would be most helpful to me. Also, once we found the source, please help me understand it with the Rambam. Should we assume that the Ramabam is against the Chassidim (which we have not found yet) you quote.



Thank you. That meant a lot.  If you read my thread in introduce yourself, you will see why I am so sour about myself.  I was clean for almost a whole year. I then fell. And I can’t get out of this whole.  The GYE site has made matters worse. It removed all my guilt, so now I freely surf for porn guilt free.  One of the reason why I needed to address this thought you brought from the Chassidim is because for me this is yetzer hara speech.  This is precisely what the Rambam was trying to address as well. Once we fall into the trap of thinking that our action are in Hashem’s hands, we subconsciously remove the efforts from within.  I am not sure if you are a fan of SA 12 steps, but they got great stuff. I know it is goyish, but they have some good ideas and they address addictions and lust in a very real way like no Torah book does.  I was in a group once and now trying to get a group here in Israel.  Anyway they explain this idea. 
I will end with a quote from the White book, if you do not mind:

SA, White Book, page 26]
I see now that in all my religious striving and psychotherapy I was waiting for the miracle to happen first, that I should somehow be zapped or wrote:


A true belief in free will is the essence to surrender and recovery in general.

I appriceate you studying my post so in depth. It will take me a few days to prurse all the proper sources. In the mean time I suggest you look in Sifsai Chaim from Rav Chaim Freidlander Vol I. he has an essay about the Chazal the sins can become merits. From what I recall (I have heard this more recently on a recorded lecture from someone else) if we use sins to shape our world view and motivate us to improve then they have had a positive effect also. This is without any other ideas people may find questionable.

Should you want to persue Pri Tzadick you can follow this link hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22600&pgnum=1

I am aware of the Mai HaSheiloach you quoted and have seen it in the past and I don't think it condraticts what I am saying.

Regarding groups if you have a DSL line GYE has phone groups in the USA and the Denver branch of SA has multiple daily phone calls.

It keeps me out of trouble.


Thanks. I actually read that sefer cover to cover numerous times.  I can't go Ellul/R"H/YK without it.  I will read that essay over again for chazara. Thanks.



Yes, this I agree.  But this is not the same as saying that our sins were caused by Hashem, chas v'shalom. The fact that  we are to grow from our mistakes and become greater people is from chazal.  Perhaps the two most popular statements are :
1) that when we do teshuvah m'ahavah our sins become zechoyos (merits)
2) a baal teshuvah's madreiga is greater than a tzadik gamur. 



Then maybe I misunderstood you.  But I thought that you said that Hashem causes all sins to happen, while Mai HaSheiloach said only at the top level.  Please clarify!



Thanks. I will to find time to jump on the bandwagon of one of these.

I just went maariv and afterwards I went to look up the tzidkas from siman 40 I quoted above.  I was mistaken. You are correct.  He does mention that all our sins at the highest levels of teshuvah will be perceived as ratzon hashem (but he never says that hashem causes them). I guess this is the closest source we can find for your principle.  I still wonder if it contradicts the Rambam. The Rambam was very clear.  What do you think?  Rav tzadok goes on to quote teh Arizal that you brought. unbelievable.  But, like all peices from rav tzadom it is hard to fully grasp what he is trying to say.

Oh, by the way can you give me the source in the pri tzadik?

Take care my friend,
-dc

You can check out Drash Moshe by R' Moshe Feinstein (as "proper mesorah" as it gets), at the end of the sefer he adds in a whole section of his pshetlach on T'nach.
Look at the shtickle on "Kol Haneshama t'hallel kah", where he basically says this whole inyan very clearly.

Thanks, but what are you doing online? I thought you gave up the web. Should I worry you are slipping?

Holy Yid wrote on 22 Jul 2010 08:09:


destructive cycle]Can you please include a source for this idea [/quote]

[quote= wrote on 23 Jul 2010 04:02:


Thank you Rabbi Kollel! I looked it up, but he does not speak about the idea that Hashem causes our sins to happen. He does say that in the end we will see how all evil in the world will be the seen as being the cause for good. But the actions as they are, he says, are still sins, caused by man himself.  This is very  similar to what Rav tzadok explained in siman 40, which I quoted above, that at the highest level of teshuvah we see how our sins became merits and thereby creating ratzon hashem.  But he does not say that are sins were caused by Hashem. And in fact, he implies the opposite in siman 43, as mentioned above.

So, we are still lacking a source for this "concept in chasidus" that states are sins are caused by Hashem. And as stated a few times above, it is against the Rambam. Please, someone fill me in. I am sorry for being such a nudge, but this sugya is at least keeping me out of trouble in the meantime.

So long me friends

. I am sorry for being such a nudge, but this sugya is at least keeping me out of trouble in the meantime.

So long me friends

[/quote]

Forgive me for psycholanilzing you from another country and not evening knowing who you are but you appear to be a little sensitive and maybe worried about what others think of you a tat more than others do, my dear fellow struggler. This might be a factor in yoour struggles and it might benefit you both personaly and in this area to read about being assertive.

I am sorry if I went anywhere I should not have, but in general FEEL FREE TO ASK AWAY. Btw you have very good questions.

Holy Yid wrote on 23 Jul 2010 09:12:


Firstly, thanks for validating  my questions.  Whether I am overly sensitive or not, validation is always important.

Secondly, feel free to psychoanalyze all you want.  The worst will be is that you are wrong. And the best will be is for you to encourage me to grow. 

Anyway, the issue has more to do with being polite than "worried about what others think".  I know from personal experience that sometime people ask me too many questions about something that I said that it becomes annoying.  So I am acknowledging the fact that I might be a nudge to you.  But, B"H, you have perfected middos and didn't even need my apology. 
Anyway, I could be wrong about myself, whatever.

But, honestly, do you honestly believe that such a "personality defect" is a cause to my addiction? And if it had some cause do you honestly believe that this is important for recovery.  At this point in my life I am dealing with compulsion issues and lack of self control.  When we blow up our problems and look at every defect in our character traits and expect that fixing those issues will help us in our struggle, we are setting ourselves up for disappointment and disaster.  But, then again, what do I know? I am still new to GYE.

Anyway, back to the main sugya. Can you please fill me with the sources? And do you agree that the Rambam's I quoted to you are against what you stated?

And once again, sorry for being a nudge.  ;D

My sweet holy friend who G-d loves dearly and who I only want that you should get better and live a happier life, please do not apologize to me again. It REALLY is getting on my nerves.

Daily Dose of Dov in GuardYourEyes Chizuk E-Mail (No. 818) Friday  ~ 12 Av, 5770  ~  July 23, 2010 ]
For whatever reason, I see it as Rav Noach zt wrote:

Reb Destructive,

Look at the last peice from Reb Tzadok on parshas vayailach

והוא כמנין אמלם ז״ל(בל״ה) חמשים שעלי ביגה
נבלאו בעולם וכולם נתנו למשה חון מאחל
מהם. היינו כי מ״ש שעלים הם ההתנהגות בשבע
מדות הק, מ״פ תוה״ק שנא, בה מזוקק שבעתים
היינו למהל ולזכך את שבמ המדות בקדושה שכל
אחת כלולה מכל שבעה• כידוע מספירת שבע שכתות
תמימות שהמה הכנה למתן תולה. והמיס שעלים
הללו נמסרו למשלמ״ה שהם ההנהגה מ״פ דרך
התולה שבכתב שניתן לו חון מאחל מהם שהוא
שעל החמשים שהוא בחי, בינה שלממלה מן הלעת
בחי, יובלא מלמא לחילו שבהגיע לבחי, זו שם
מתהפכים הזלונות לזכיות. ועיז למזו חז״ל במקום
שבמימ מומלין צליקים גמולים. אינם עומדים כי
צדיקים גמולים הם שללכם ישלה וכל התנהגותם
מ״פ ללך התולה לזכך הז, מלות בשלל המסודר
מיפ למת התוה״ק בסול מלע ועשה מוב. אבל מי
שלא עלתה לו כך ובא לתקן ע״פ ללכי התשובה
בהכלח להגיע בתשובתו למקום גבוה למעלה מן
המלות ומן במי׳ הלממ במסילת נפש ואז גתבלל
שהי׳ הכל בהשגתתו ית׳ וכל העונות נעשים כזכיות
והוא שער התמשים שלא נמסר למשרעיה מפגי
שבתי, משרע״ה הוא ההתנהגות עפ״י שוהיק סישב״כ
כשינ זכרו תורת משה והוא בתי, צדיקים גמורים
שכל דרכם מ״פ תורה למהר עצמם בהז׳ מרות
להיות ללעתו מואש בלע ובומל במוכ שפיז נא׳
בתולה ובתלת בחיים. ולכן לא נמסל לושעלהנ׳
בתי׳ בינה שזה שייך לק לבעית כנ״ל. וזה יש
לכוין במה שתית הרמב״ם ז״ל בענין היליעהוהבחירה והראב״ד ז״ל השיג עליו. ובאמת נרמז
תירוצו בזוה״ח ובכתבי האריז״ל שאמר שהם שני
מדרגות זו למעלה מזו שבמקום הגבוה של הידיעה
שם באמת אין בחירה. ולדברגו יובן קצת שמקום
הבחירה הוא בבחי׳ ז׳ מדות הק׳ ומקום הידיעה
והשגחה הוא למעלה מן הז׳ מדות והוא בחי׳ בינה
השובה עלאה ישם אין בחירה. והוא ענין בחי׳
דוד המעיה שנדרש עליו הפ׳ הקים על שהקים
עולה של תשובה וכמאמר חז״ל לא הי׳ דוד ראוי
לאותה מעשה כמו שאמר ולבי חלל בקרבי אלא
כדי להורות תשובה. וזה נתברר לו אחר שנתקבל

בתשובה שלימה בכל דרכי התשובה כמו שא




The quote has a few mistakes so look here hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22600&st=&pgnum=212

Thanks!
I sent you a PM.