OK Guys, here is my question of the day:

As was discussed, the isur is LOOKING, not SEEING.
However, not doing whatever possible not to SEE is also certainly asur.

A separate point, (mentioned by R' Guard elsewhere) is that how you are looking and how it effects you makes a fundamental difference. It is asur to look at even the pinky of a fully clothed woman if the intent is to derive enjoyment from her appearance, but a doctor can look at a totally undressed woman if his intent is for medical purposes (and he can control his mind). 

It seems (and I think it has been mentioned elsewhere), that actively "fighting" can be more triggering than just passively ignoring/not concentrating on...

Therefore the question is... would there ever be a situation where it would appropriate to take less than the most evasive action possible to avoid the triggering effect of "fighting too hard"??


[FWIW: This question ocurred to when I was in an airport with a long delay (and no lounge available). I'm still not sure why, but airports seem to be a place that women feel it is appropriate not to cover themselves.

Good Shabbos,

Hi guys, i'm not to be found so much on the threads in the part half a year. Although i do update my thread 'aleh katan' once in a while. But this thread caught my eye, you know why? Because that is what i've been trying to do  'shmiras einayim-not internet' i am not to be found too much on internet, so my 'avodah' is on the streets etc. Baruch hashem i'm 65 days clean (that's from the last issues i'm trying to rid of, from p. i've been clean for almost eight months) back to the point, just a few additions to this thread. My friend asks me, why do you not look, not talk, basically not have any interest in their existence, in america it's not like that(i'm not american as you figured). I answered him that it has nothing to do with that, just some people are just more sensitive than others. I really would have answered 'and who says what everybody's doing is not wrong, it's very wrong! I'm not such a tzaddik to be able to say that, but that is the real truth. He's a good boy, but, that's a problem of not only this generation, but many before. Rabbeinu yonah writes about this too. Sorry for being too long, just two short points. When i walk the streets and the y"h is busy, i tell him ' why should i stick my nose into her life, how she looks, i'm not going to get anything real out of her, i'm not going to marry her, so what for? Another point, since b"h i've reached very far, when the y"h really gets strong, i think to myself for a few minutes how angry i would be feeling at myself after doing something wrong and would never forgive myself for it, to the point that it would not feel worth it. Yes, people say "EVERYBODY LOOKS SO WHY SHOULDN'T I" The answer is 'because you are part of gye', who are different and the most special people existing.........!!!! Hatzlacha to all! LOI-M   

Reb Loi-Misyaeish,

We am proud to be part of a kehilla that has you as a member! Therefore, we are proud to be part of GYE!!!

Reb Kosher,

The actual problem is lust. Our body doesn’t automatically lust after something it sees.
Our feelings don’t come from external stimuli or situations.
What happens is a three step process:
We observe a situation.
We have a particular attitude about the situation
Our feelings derive from that attitude.

Imagine one scenario but with two different people:
They both buy a brand new car. The latest and greatest car possible.
They’re ecstatic about their new purchase, glowing with pride.
They drive it off the showroom floor, turn a corner and get smashed into by a drunk driver.
Person A sees this as the end of all his hard work, the destruction of his prize possession. His feelings: Angry, Sad, Vengeful.
Person B gets out, looks at the wreck and says “Thank Hashem I’m alive!”. His feelings: Happy, Grateful.

Looking is when you chose to take in the view, think about it, tell yourself how exciting it is (and many inappropriate things).
Even though the sight may only last a second or it may only be a finger, if your thoughts are based on lust, your body will start lusting.

Seeing is when you don’t think about the image. It may be a highly provocative billboard on the side of the road, but you’re late for work so you don’t give it a second thought and thus do not react to it.

Actively “fighting” can cause you to remember those lust building thoughts. Every time you invoke the memory your body reacts again, thus keeping the lust chemicals flowing.
All feelings whether they are happiness, lust or anger are not based on the situation, but on our reaction and attitude to the situation.
We will never win if we are only trying to ignore the feelings. We can win if we adjust our attitude.

ToAdd

Lots of great chizuk on this thread, thank you. 


I find that it's really difficult to change my attitude although I agree that this is necessary in the long run.  Focusing on what I should be doing and not thinking so much about fighting lust (which just keeps my mind on lust) is the ideal...but it requires a different mind set.  I find that I can do it for a while - even a few weeks or months - but as good as that is, I'm also not remembering all the pain and trouble that lusting can cause.  So inevitably my brain wanders a bit and I have to brush off the old tools to avoid getting sucked in, oblivious to the danger after ignoring it for a while.  I'd love to "get to the next level" and stop getting mired in the cycle.  But maybe it's not meant to be.  Maybe this is my tafkid.  Regardless, it's really none of my business since He's in control.  If only I could internalize that...

this is a good thread i decided to revive it likavos shavavim tt

thank you for reviveing it!

ok ok.....so......do a reward system???? if i make it for one block keeping my eyes on the floor, i will let myself have one block that ill let myself walk normally (not specifically looking out for it) keep switching every other block, one being super careful, one not being super careful. but if you loose control on one of the caareful blocks, then you need to be carefull for 2 blocks. and once you get good at this make it, go 2 blocks being careful and one block not careful. etc etc etc.......comments please. i could see reasons why many would say that this is not a good idea.

specifically walk on the ice, the ice teaches us a very special lesson, keep your eyes down or else youll fall. (if you walk on ice and are not careful and are not looking at what you are walking on, for me, its much much easier to slip) so while you walk on the ice, remember that if you dont look down you will slip and fall, and also remember the lesson of the ice, if you dont keep your eyes down you have a fall. (spiritually besides physically) and say the lesson over and over again in your mind.

count the squares on the sidewalk.

learn a lot of torah and only then walk outside, or as you are walking, think of a torah thought, try to see if you remember the shakliya ve'tarya of 2 daf of gemorah. etc.

good?

HashemsSoldier wrote on 22 Dec 2010 21:04:


Reb Shloima Karliner said "oib men is zigebinden fin oiben falt men nisht fin unten"

tomid besimcha wrote on 26 Dec 2010 17:43:

translation?

tomid besimcha wrote on 26 Dec 2010 17:43:


"if you are attached on top then you wont fall on the bottom"

meaning if you are attached to the RBSO then you will not stumble and fall when the road is icy and slippery

Thanks for the translation Reb ZuSah

Hi,

I was in a southern US state yesterday. It was 85 degrees (F, thats around 30 C for all foreigners) the sun was beating down. What's more, everyone there seemed to expect the weather and was dressed accordingly. B"H I only had to deal with me for my work, but just the summer kind of environment was a mental challenge. Its time to prepare now, because it's coming to where we leave soon.

It will be a challenge, but we can deal with it...

aish kodesh wrote on 27 Jul 2010 03:29:

i have news for you. a lust addict probably WILL think about how pretty she is as she is pulling him out.

Bards yasher koach on a very important thread.
I dont know how I never saw it until now.
But I guess that's also ratzon Hashem
הכל בחזקת סומין עד שהקב"ה מאיר את עיניהם
anyhow, i find this to be my major battle now that I clean for 239 days
a non frum friend and i were out for lunch and his eyes were everywhere
(i thought he would get whiplash)
and i just kept looking down
he said you know you frum people are making this into a major issue
just look, ackowledge it and move on
by avoiding it youre just making it worse
now i know he's wrong because chazal dont agree with that approach
but what is the real answer to him?
or really to my YH who keeps replaying that conversation
every time I battle my eyes

that's a very good question gzm. I have had plenty of those type of conversations at work, even with frum colleagues.

My understanding is that by us not sucking it all in all the time, we are more sensitive to it because our neshomohs are in a holier state and therefore we feel the lack of kedusha and the yetser horah more intensely. The more you look, the less sensitive you are to it, so much so that you don't even realise what problem it is causing.

Just this morning i read something from rav shimshon pincus where he said that timhon levav, the last of the al cheit's is the worst one. It's a desensitising of the heart so that you can no longer feel when something is pas nicht, when it is unjewish. I think that is what happens if we allow oursleves to look around everywhere all the time...

(my humble understanding of the issue...)