DovInIsrael wrote on 07 Mar 2011 10:26:


Boy, talk about shma ka garim -DII, you sound sort of like Dov.

Once again, I seem to have been misunderstood, so I will say it again... (just a little louder this time...)

If not for the fact that I purport to be a frum Jew, the bottom of my barrel would be rock bottom -and therefore if I were to rely on my moral fiber, I might never have gotten the chance to hit rock bottom -since I very well might have plummeted right through the bottom of the barrel straight into the grave... So far so good?

However -since I purport to be a frum Jew, and have had (at least dimyoinois of) kirvas Hashem in the past -I feel like said corpse in back alley even if I am still far away from said description and location I realize that I cannot continue to live this way -for this kind of life is actually a SLOW PAINFUL DEATH. Therefore, having found this place, and having been introduced to the new realization that there is another way -I am trying to take that opportunity.

I do not like being jumped by dov himself or the in Israel version...

If someone as much as mention the word Jew -both of you are off on the presumption that Rachmana Litzlan this is a violation of the non-sectarian nature of the -onymous doctrine, and will therefore be a terrible stumbling block in the path of recovery for that person who dared mention the "J" word or in the path of others who might have read what he wrote...

You and he have totally missed my point, time and time again...

Did I say that being Jewish exempts one from the possibility of falling to the absolute bottom of the barrel? NO!

Did I say that being non-Jewish makes one more likely to fall out of the bottom of the barrel? NO!

I just said that the contrast between the light of Torah true Judaism and the darkness and depression of the lies and sickness that my life had become -raised the bottom of the barrel and made my life continuing as more of the same a non-option.

Now, what's your beef?

E

PS Mac -Sorry for hijacking some of your thread...

E

No worries Mate! I see ur point. But I would give both Dovs the benefit of the doubt. It was midnight for Dov when he went to posted an it was too early in the morning for DUI when he posted. I'm with you on this one.

But maybe also look at my posts just for a sec...?

Of course I looked at your posts for more than a second!

hey ben d.

wow are you hot under the collar - did someone say or do something to you to put you in such a huffy mood?

ok - forget it, it was a joke.
my friend used that line on a police office after being pulled over for a ticket.

I could not believe it - my friend was so much in the present...calm as could be... the office actually backed off... mumbled something under his breathe, and then told my friend to drive carefully!

lets start over, ok?

pull up a seat... and pass me some of that beef.
have a L'chaim or two.

*smiles*

someone giving out beef here? i thought this was strictly mac 'n cheese  :-\

ben durdayah wrote on 07 Mar 2011 11:18:


Reb Ben Durdaya,

I have spent a large part of last week trying to make the same point as you.

I was not successful. 

Am I Rebbi Elazar ben Azarya & you are Ben Zoma??

I was told in very clear terms by Guard to cease & desist from arguing with Dov.

If you can explain it to him, many of us will reap the benefits!





He has seen many newcomers who think that their being Jewish allows them to get out of the Addiction by some short-cut which is not available to the others. His experience has shown that idea to be counter-productive. Therefore, whenever he sees someone who recognizes that their life is all messed up mention the fact that they are Jewish, he immediately tries to shlug it upp. He doesn't want other newbies to read it & get misconceptions in their heads. (I think that he isn't even taking the time or effort to carefully weigh your words...)

I agree with ben Durdaya.... and I don't think he is arguing with Dov or Dov II... Let me try and explain the subtle difference that I think is causing some confusion here.

Dov's point is that it is not "moral" issues that will get us to stop. That was never enough, and it won't suddenly "become" enough now.
What can get us out of this mess is when we really feel we must stop or we're toast.
Recovery needs to be for enlightened self-interest, as the Torah says - "ma Hashem sho'el me'imcha ki im....etc, etc...  letov lach"...
Now here's the sticky point.
Most people think that Dov means that being Jewish has nothing to do with it. After all, if it's not a moral issue but only a selfish issue, then what's the difference if I'm Jewish or not?
But it's not the case.
As Ben Durdaya pointed out, for us frum Yidden, the feeling that we must stop or we're toast comes a lot FASTER. We have a much higher "bottom" to hit than most people.
So when we truly internalize
then we realize we MUST STOP for enlightened self-interest or we're finished.
So no one is arguing here.
We are all on GYE because we are Yidden.
Yes, it's true.
Because if we weren't Yidden we wouldn't be here YET.
We would only get here after hitting a lot LOWER bottom, and being on the verge of real death.
So because we are Yidden, we came here much earlier.
But we won't recover just "because we are Yidden and the Torah says it's wrong".
Naaseh Lo Kiheter.
It's not enough for us to know it's morally wrong.
We need to truly "FEEL" that we've hit OUR (higher) bottom.
We need to feel where this is leading us.... into a dark world of depression and eventual death.
And we frum Jews can feel it a lot earlier than the rest of the world.

Sorry for the Megilah, but I hope I made it clearer now why there is no Machlokes between Dov's Mehalech and anyone else's here.

I appreciate the reflection and representation of my words.

I would like to add that I know my limitations, and do not consider myself a bar-plugta of someone with dov's experience... I just wanted to be understood correctly.

Thank you,

E

First off, Guard, I'm glad you could make it. Make yourself at home. Take off your shoes, wiggle your toes and get comfortable. It's nice to have you with us.
One of the Moderators should be swooping down some time soon with a standard welcome package about the going-ons here at GYE.
Second, Zem, I think you meant Doc Mac? :D

-Mac

@Dov...

hey, Dov, you out there.
Looks like Guard pulled the plug on us, and made all nicey-nice!

Dont ya just hate it when it prevents us from bully the newbies, here.

oh, well.. what do to now?
wanna step out side, and join me for a good old fashioned rumble - to let some steam off ?

Maybe guard will let the newbies ....

...

...join us for a bar-b-que to welcome everyone!

(ha! I bet he thought I was going to invite the newbies to place some wagers)

on the zany side of life, I remain...
dov.ii

Come One Come All!! The Doves will be sponsoring an achdus BBQ!!  We"ll have latkes, Mac and cheese, steaks, fried possum and sufganiyot like Bubby would make them!!

(Is it alright if I hijack my thread for a few minutes?)

My first day at home after a REALLY long break. My mother asked me to do a few things for her like take my brother to hockey lessons and drive around a bit. At first I was completely not interested. I just finished 20 hours of flying around the world. I was wiped. But i realized she really needed my help and I agreed to go. It was actually very enjoyable. After the practice I went and played a little basketball with him. It was great.

shkoiach, keep producing mitzvos and playing basketball with a smile, thats what wer'e here for

Mac, good to hear you are keeping yourself fit and honoring the Mom and smiling about it all. extra mac 'n cheese for you

Oh no! I forgot about Mom!!

There will also be 7UP by the Dove sponsored BBQ!!

:D

Mac!

Where have you been the last day and a half or so?

It's been too quiet around here!

E