Agree with Kanesh. Step 1, for now, is to break clean, go your separate ways. In a year, or two, or three, is it possible that you'll meet again? Maybe. But in the meantime, you both need to move on. Completely.

You don't have to tell her she smells. Tell her that you can't continue because it's hurting you.

However, as far as resenting her - YOU made a mistake. Was she part of it? Yes, but don't blame her for your mistakes.

One thing is for certain - as difficult as it is (and as i mentioned, I was involved with some people who were really special), you CAN walk away - and once you do, you'll be glad you did. And the more diatance you get, I think you'll see more and more clearly that you made the right move.

So I shouldn't talk to her at all? Not even, like, once in a blue moon?

TiredOfFalling wrote on 24 May 2010 19:20:

So, can't I like have one little fix of heroin for old times sake?

(or, forgive me in advance for being tasteless, but I'm reminded of the old wives' tale that h'zl leads to blindness: "can't I just do it 'til I need glasses").

You know the answer, buddy. So, what's your question??

Wait, no, I didn't mean dirty talk, just to ask her how she's been. Is that really a "fix"?

TiredOfFalling wrote on 24 May 2010 21:39:

I know you didn't mean anything inappropriate - just a (clean, kedushadige) chat. Even so, it took me almost ten years before I could visit with an "ex-" without some level of other thoughts. And that was with my wife in the same room.

I don't know what you think your threshhold is for keeping your thoughts under control, but whatever it is I BET IT'S LOWER!!  (Like, dude, er, why are you on GYE in the first place, duh?)

In other words, don't call the girl unless it's through a shadchan... especially once she's in Israel... long distances can make folks feel quite differently about those they left behind.

I'm sure the rest of the gang here will speak similarly. (Or stronger.) Were you expecting anything else??

Here's the question - is it possible that talking to her, even just to see how she's doing, might lead to other things? Even a 5% possibility? Is that worth it? (and speaking from experience, I'd say that for most people, it's more than a 5% chance)

And more than that...even if you happen to be the one guy for whom there is NO risk of anything more than just talking, friendly-like...it's STILL not worth it. because staying in touch will limit both of you. You need to get away from each other so that each of you can grow on your own, and find your own paths in life. You don't want to limit yourself in the meantime by thinking about her, and you future potential with her, and honestly, you don't want to limit her either (even if she wants that), by making her think that her future is only with you - let her find herself, and grow on her own.

I'll tell you how far this goes - One girl I was friends with had some printer ink cartridges that I'd left at her house a while before. She emailed me asking if I wanted them back. I said no. I didn't want any contact, not even her leaving them outside her door - because being outside her door, I'd be tempted. And even if she wouldn't be home, I still didn't want to be involved. We stopped talking, and then she needed my help - she was moving away (her father was sick), and she really wanted someone to talk to, plus she needed help with some moving stuff, even just bringing her boxes.

You can read my posts from then (don't know exactly how long ago), but i assure you, it wasn't easy. I felt like a real jerk. But I deleted her email, and I have no doubt whatsoever that I did the right thing. My relationship with her was unhealthy, and so it had to end.

There were even girls that i was JUST friends with, and I ended those relationships too, because they weren't healthy.

It's not easy. But you can do it.

It is very possible that talking to her will lead to other things, I'll admit to that. But when she goes to Israel, I don't think there's that chance. She'll be in seminary and she won't want to talk about stuff like that. We won't be able to talk that frequently, and the calls will be long distance, so I'll really just be asking her how she's doing. In terms of the fact that talking to her will make me think forbidden thoughts... that's definitely an issue. I definitely see the value in not talking to her because of that. But... we want the exact same things in life. I don't want to cut off contact with her completely and then lose her forever. What if I just cut off contact for a month? or longer, however long it takes. Is that really an unworkable situation?
SilentBattle... you also mentioned that you cut off contact with friends. Is that necessary? I have a friend who i've been friends with for many years and it's always been platonic, I genuinely don't even think there's a risk of something happening.
Or, as a more general question, how am I supposed to relate to girls in general? should i not talk to them at all?

OK, so step 1 - till she goes, you should not be in contact with her at all - even if something terrible happens to her, and she needs someone to talk to...no mater what.

Now, in Israel - first of all, you'd be amazed at what can happen. Now, if you "might" have forbidden thoughts, how can that be the basis of a positive relationship - if things do work out between you two, don't you want to start off in a good way?

As far as general friendships with girls, I personally think it's a dangerous situation, but for me in particular, it was bad, because in my community, guys and girls aren't usually friends, so for me, it was a secret friendship - so, not healthy. my point was that when a relationship isn't healthy, it needs to end.

You say that you want the same things in life. That may be - but she's about to go to israel for seminary, and many times, people change their minds about what they want, what their priorities are, how they see things, etc. It may be that at the end of the year, after each of you growing, you'll be even better suited for each other - but if you stay in touch, it's likely that you'll each hold each other back, because you WANT to stay on the same page. And that may end up costing both of you significant growth.

Let her go. If it's meant to be, it'll happen - but you need to move on. Right now, this isn't healthy, and you need to get far, far away from it.

TiredOfFalling wrote on 24 May 2010 17:08:


Not necessarily. However, first you should make a clean break. Wait a while, like a half year or year. If she has stopped these behaviors for a year, maybe there is hope. Same with you. She is going  away for a year anyway, right?

Personally, I believe in asking a moreh derech these kinds of questions. I know that it is sometimes difficult to find such a person, if you do not have such a relationship already. But I still believe in the necessity of having such a person.

ok - think o fit this way...

she is the hunter...
ok - lets tone it down a bit...

she is a fisherman (fisherwoman...after all you are in the land of the free and the brave and equal rights for all - so why shoudl she sit home waiting for someone to reel her in ... she is after her man)

and you are her catch!

and she will lure you in - any way possible ...

hey pal - your life is on the line!!!!

do you want to wind up some klind of fried catfish in the local diner!

The problem is that I want her to catch me.

TiredOfFalling wrote on 25 May 2010 18:07:


Ah, tachlis! Brutal self-honesty! Shkoiach. So I guess my curiosity extends to WHY you want to be caught:
1) you love her and want to build a bayis ne'eman b'yisroel with her.
2) you lust after (parts of) her and feel good that she wants you, too.
3) not really sure.

If 1), you know darned well what to do. (And I'd find a shadchan to keep things 'on track.')
If 2), you also know darned well that anyone with a GYE.org issue should run like hell from nuclear mushroom clouds. RUN! Don't think! RUN!
If 3), you know you've got some thinking to do. Feel free to do it online so that someone might catch you in some self-deception or give you some encouragement for good insights. We're all here for you, dude.

Is there another option?? Your thoughts?

TiredOfFalling wrote on 25 May 2010 18:07:



I watched a friend go through this. We believe in God , my friend. We believe that he is truly mezaveg zivugim. Listen to me; I have seen with my own eyes that this is true - you cannot take what is not yours. And you can what never lose what is meant to be.  And that trying to take "illegitimately" what is yours - before it's time, can truly ruin it.


Take a deep breath. Pull up your anchor - honestly, respectfully, and totally - think Humprepy Bogart at the end of Casablanca.
And then move on. Let her move on. I don't what the heck will happen later. I know either you will come to yourself and realize that your true zivug lies elsewhere. Or you'll seek her, with a shadchan, and you'll have what is yours.

There's no other way. You can't the kugel on erev shabbos - you don't know if it's your kugel. And you'll have nothing to eat on shabbos if it is.
So if your in marriage mode now - then as Briut suggest, get a shadchan. Sounds like you're not and neither is she.
If not - then move on.

and some relationships are not as good as you think initially

men's IQ drops 50 points when they come across a girl they think they can have a relationship with


She


by Darlene C. Zagata


Just a few thoughts on relationships.


She draws the very life from him
leaving him hollow and empty.
She sits and waits like a vulture
for his almost lifeless body to cease.

Her kind is known quite well.
Some call her succubus or vampire.
Her food is the soul
of some unsuspecting male.
Slowly she withdraws his life force
until there's nothing left.

She is a demon in any event,
a creature of the night
waiting to pounce on her prey
ripping at him from the inside out.

Her God is money and freedom her delight.
She searches nightly parties
for souls to feed upon .
Once she's eaten you, she'll find another.

Wake up from the trance you're in.
See the ugliness inside.
Open your eyes to sense and reason.
Drive a stake through her love's heart.

TiredOfFalling wrote on 25 May 2010 18:07:

Here are a couple of things that I think you should consider.

You know that having just one sexual episode can attach one emotionally to the other.
You have to try and understand whether that is the reason for your wanting her, or if there is really more.

If you heard of some other couple that had a similar relationship, would you think that they could have the proper hashkofoh and behaviors  to build a bayis ne'emon?