c) eye- the kotzker famously said that he wants his chasidim to not have time to sin - indicating that he knows that people not that we can necessarily beat the yetzer- so why isnt spending time in the beis medrash even as an 'escape' a bad thing?! are u kidding? the more time we spend there the less time in front of a computer or in a bed! ok. you can focus on your relationship with Hashem at the same time by doing hisboididus - im in favor of that for sure. but you may be overthinking things when u say that we are escaping from oursleves.
again, i believe that BH I am not a full blown addict- when i learn in the morning i simply going to learn and not consiously to escape from anything. maybe you were referring to someone like that.

Hey,

If you would like someone to track your Internet activity, I would probably use WebChaver (www.webchaver.org). There is a 2 week trial coupon "aishpromo2010"  that you may be able to use at checkout. It should give you a two week trial period. I'm not sure if this coupon works but you can give it a shot.

I'm currently testing several computer monitoring options because I would like a program that tracks ALL my computer activity. I can be a slacker sometimes and I would like to feel that someone is watching all my computer activities. The drawback is that I'll loose all my privacy (it records passwords, emails, every keystroke, and it takes screenshots every x minutes).

Needless to say, this will only work if you can send your stats to a person that you feel intimidated/embarrassed from and someone that you trust implicitly. As mentioned above, I'm testing several options and I'll let you know which one I choose. I'm considering sniperspy (www.acespy.com/sniperspy.html) but I'll see...

Best of luck and happy chanukah!

StrugglingGuy wrote on 01 Dec 2010 23:02:


Chazal also say that the Torah is compared to water because, it only makes grow whatever you planted in your field.  If your field is full of wheat, or if you've got a vineyard, so that's what will grow.  But if you've got a field full of weeds, the water will give you a plentiful crop of weeds.

I do believe the Nefesh Hachaim would also agree with this chazal, in my humble opinion.

Recovery is pulling out the weeds.

Let's just get l'maisah and forget about philosophy (it's one method we like to use in order to prolong our addiction):  When you delve into a sugya does it stop you from acting out?

Yes?  Great.  So that's all you need to do.

No?  Okay.  So forget about that FOR NOW and listen to what methods HAVE helped people recover.

--Eye.

StrugglingGuy wrote on 01 Dec 2010 23:09:


First of all, are you a kotzker chassid?

Secondly, NO.  IF WE ARE DOING AN ACTIVITY AS AN ESCAPE, EVEN A POSITIVE ACTIVITY, EVEN THE MOST IMPORTANT ACTIVITY IN THE WHOLE WORLD--LEARNING TORAH, AND WE ARE NOT TREATING THE ROOT CAUSE OF OUR ADDICTION DIRECTLY, THEN WE ARE MERELY LIKE A ELASTIC BUILDING UP TENSION; IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE WE SNAP.

StrugglingGuy wrote on 01 Dec 2010 23:02:


(Guard, I hope you don't mind if I also put in my 2 aggurot worth here):

First of all, CAN YOU STOP YOURSELF FROM ACTING OUT!  Or, probably like so many of us, you go all the way, and all the way saying to yourself, "I SHOULDN'T DO THIS."  You know you shouldn't, and you tell yourself you don't want to.  But you can't help it.  You don't have bechira.

You may be familiar with Rav Dessler's famous "nekudat habechira" explanation.  Our free choice isn't for everything all the time.  There's some territory we've already conquered, and is no longer a test for us.  On the other hand, there's some territory we haven't conquered yet, and that's beyond our abilites right now.  AND, there's the front lines.  THAT'S the choice which is not too hard for us, yet not too easy.  It's the point where we can exercise our free will. (And, as we battle the yeitzer throughout our lives, sometimes we gain footing, and sometimes we lose footing).  As addicts, the ability to choose whether or not to act out IS FIRMLY HELD BY THE OPPOSING ARMY.  It's not within our abilities to win, DIRECTLY.

WE STILL DO HAVE THE CHOICE TO EXERCISE OUR FREE WILL IN OTHER, INDIRECT WAYS, WHICH WILL PREVENT US FROM ACTING OUT.

We need to keep a look out--what are we doing before we act out.  What leads us to act out?  Which activities?  Which THOUGHTS!  And it's not only thoughts about lust.  It's thoughts about depression, anger, resentment, etc.

I've heard from Duvid Chaim there's a chazal that says THERE ARE 10 GATES TO SIN.  Which means, there's something that happens TEN STEPS EARLIER before we act out.  THIS is distant enough from acting out that we can actually exercise our free will, and change course.

As we grow in recovery, we can notice when we're approaching gate 7 or 8.  Later on, our warning sign goes off at gate 4 and 5.  Better still, gates 1 and 2.

--Eye.

eye- again it gets back to everyone's personal situation.
even if i am an addict, my addiction may not be comaparble to yours or anyone else's.
that being the case:
  a) i dont know if my regular morning seder is necess an 'escape' from lust, rather something part of my day
  b) im not disputing that chazal about learning being detrimental but i wonder abt exactly what it means- if i have weeds and i water it it with learning, the weeds will grow more- yes i have lust issues (again mab an addiction, mab not- mab placed on me from Hashem, mab not) but in any event, how would my torah learning exacerbate the issue? what does one have to do with the either in the sense that the learning would not only not help me fight it, but would make it worse? i dont get it...
i know i come at this whole thing from a philosophiocal perspective sometimes, but i cannot help it. after years learning (def not bragging, i know and remember very little unfortunately) and listening to shiurim, these issues and chazal's about combating the yezter and bechira, etc. etc. tend to occupy my mind when i assess where i am at and why i am in this position and how i can break free.
moreover, once i learned all the chazal's about these inyanim, i am trying to see how they fit in with my l'maaseh, because unfortuantely for me it is l'maaseh!

StrugglingGuy wrote on 02 Dec 2010 18:00:


Ok then, in your personal situation, can you stop yourself from acting out by opening up a gemara?

who  cares about all this philosophy. We have a chiyuv to learn even if its a escape and even if it will grow weeds. We also have to figure out a way that works for us to stop our addiction. I will not play around with diffrent chazals. I just gotto do somthing that works to stop.

I'd advise you to forget about wondering if you're an addict or not. When I first started here, I was adamant that I wasn't an addict. I came up with all kinds of explanations to support that. One reason I am where I am now (with the help of a lot of people, and hashem, clean for over a year), is that I decided not to worry about it - and act as if i was, and take all the steps I needed to end this behavior, whether it was an addiction or not.

The same way that anyone who's serious about security talks to israeli security, because they have the most experience and the best procedures for dealing with terrorism...anyone who want's to deal with Lust can learn from recovery techniques.

As far as my example before, of learning to make ourselves feel better...it's not a conscious thing, necessarily. But let me put it this way - you don't feel good when you act out, right? And learning is something that makes you feel like you're doing something right, yes?

Then odds are, part of your motivation for learning is to feel better about yourself - even though you're still acting out. We've all been there.

"The more the dark consumes me, the more I'm burning bright."

Woops.

Looks like I scared this guy off.

...Didn't quite mean to do that.

Sometimes can't resist one of these debates; another one of those things I've got to work on.  It's a control issue, I guess, part of this addiction.

Sorry about that.

--Eye.

scared who off?

sb- what are some recovery techniques that have worked for you?

StrugglingGuy wrote on 05 Dec 2010 17:00:


...maybe it was just the week-end.

Anyways, good to see you.

lol- well it is my thread, eye, so of course ill still be here

have a good week everyone, B"E

Having good people around you, connecting with people who you can call, having a good support system - that's essential. Therapy can also be helpful. I had a rebbe, a therapist, and a good friend as my support system.

Stay clean. Enjoy it. Learn from it.

Learning from it means really learning the lessons, coming to understand yourself, your needs and drives, and a deep acceptance of the fact that staying sober is essential to staying alive.

thanx sb-

BH  I have rabbeim here but iu have not discussed this issue with any of them although i did email with a former a rabbi of mine and told him exactly about my issue.  i told my grandfather also once (he happens to be a rabbi and a psychologist)

had a fall the other night after spending  a loooooing time talking with my special someone. it was one of those where you are half sleeping when you do it. i have people to call when i need to ; the problem now is remembering to make the call- does the yh have the power to make us forget to reach out for help when we need to? i mean someontimes i do remember that i have an option to call and i dont do it, because i do not want to make the call, i just want to fulfill my lust at that moment. but other times i feel that if i had the remembernece to make a call, i would....